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ph-newbie
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| Posted: November 27 2007 at 17:51 | IP Logged
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OK, I have PH partly talking to my ELK M1G. At least I can see the status of ELK Zones and Outputs in PowerHome. But when I try to use the Insteon Explorer to "Load" any Insteon devices to the ELK, I get a popup error with:
"A timeout occurred trying to retrieve data. Aborting Process"
I don't have any lighting/Insteon devices defined in the M1. I'm trying to transfer a few of the PowerHome defined devices to the M1 so it can control them via Elk Rules.
I'm not clear if the M1 can control devices through PH or if it still needs its own serial interface and another PLC to control an Insteon device? I'm hoping if the "Load" button ever works, the Elk numbered PH Insteon devices will show up under "Automation Lighting" in the ElkRP software? At least that's what the brief help file hints at?
I have PH connected via ethernet, I have the port opened up in the XP Firewall and, as I mentioned above, PH and the M1 are at least communicating in other ways.
Does anyone have any ideas why I'm getting the error trying to share Insteon devices with the M1G? Am I even on the right track here?
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gatchel
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| Posted: November 29 2007 at 21:44 | IP Logged
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I think the device loading has to be done directly to the M1-XSP serial port with a serial cable. Not though the network.
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ph-newbie
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| Posted: November 30 2007 at 11:10 | IP Logged
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gatchel wrote:
| I think the device loading has to be done directly to the M1-XSP serial port with a serial cable. Not though the network. |
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Thanks for the reply. If that's true, that explains the problem.
The ELK's network interface really is just an ethernet-to-serial adapter. It "encapsulates" the serial data into ethernet packets so it uses the same commands and protocol as the serial interface. I assumed PH had the same functionality over either ELK interface?
I'm still not clear on the intent of loading devices into the ELK? Is it just an easier way to get device ID's into the ELK so it can then control them with its own serial PLC? Or is it so the ELK can send serial messages to PH and PH then controls the devices?
So far I've been able to use "phantom" digital outputs on the ELK to activate triggers in PH. So, in a rather convoluted way, the ELK can control Insteon devices through PH. But it would be nice if I could have more direct control from the ELK?
Mr Howard, any comment on the above issues?
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dhoward
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| Posted: December 01 2007 at 16:38 | IP Logged
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PH-Newbie,
You are correct, PowerHome works with the M1XEP (ethernet to serial adaptor) the same way it would as if directly connected to the Elk's serial port.
The Elk has a rather simple lighting interface that it uses to communicate with ALL of it's supported lighting protocols. This interface is based upon X10 and consists of numbered lighting devices from 1 to 256. The way the Elk works with Insteon, is that an M1XSP (serial adaptor) is connected to the Elk via the RS-485 network. The M1XSP must have a serial Insteon PLC connected to it. Using Elk rules, the Elk can directly control lighting devices 1 to 256. This will then go out over the Elk network, be interpreted by the M1XSP, and converted into Insteon control commands. Devices 1 to 192 are for individual lighting devices, 193 to 256 are for Insteon PLC groups 1 to 64.
In order for this to work properly, the PLC connected to the M1XSP should have already be linked to the Insteon devices. The PLC communicates with the Insteon network and sends/receives Insteon commands. So, before even connecting to the Elk, you should already have the PLC setup to control up to the first 64 PLC groups and for best results, have the PLC as a responder of each of the other Insteon devices. PowerHome can do this part for you with it's linking capabilities.
The next requirement is that the M1XSP *MUST* have the Insteon addresses of each Insteon device programmed within it. This can be done manually through a tedious linking process to the PLC (while connected to the M1XSP) using the tap-tap method. You're basically telling the M1XSP that Elk lighting device 1 is this Insteon address, Elk lighting device 2 is a different Insteon address, etc. The Elk itself knows nothing about Insteon, just lighting devices 1 to 256. When the M1XSP sees a command to turn on lighting device 5, it will look up within it's own internal database and see that lighting device 5 has a particular Insteon address. The M1XSP will then send a command to the PLC to turn on that Insteon address. When the M1XSP see's a lighting devices from 193 to 256, it instead tells the PLC to turn on an Insteon group from 1 to 64.
Now, the tedious manual programming of Insteon addresses into the M1XSP can also be done by PowerHome. But the *only* mechanism currently provided by Elk is to directly connect the PowerHome computer to the M1XSP by it's serial port (as if the PowerHome computer was a PLC for example). PowerHome will then be capable of programming the required Insteon addresses into the M1XSP. When done, the PowerHome PC is disconnected and the PLC is hooked up in it's place. The PowerHome programming *MUST* be done using a female to female, null modem cable. This is a convuluted process, to say the least, but easier than the manual alternative.
Once done, the Elk can then directly control the Insteon network. If PowerHome is connected to the Elk, then PowerHome can control the Insteon network through the Elk. It has to do this though via X10 (the Elk always thinks of lighting as X10). You would define X10 devices in PowerHome for each of your Insteon devices. A1 is Elk lighting device 1. A2 is device2, etc. When PowerHome sends a command to turn on A1, this command will go to the Elk. The Elk will then send a command to turn on Device 1, the M1XSP will receive this and well, you know the rest of the story.
What I believe most people do however, is to have 2 PLC's. One connected to the M1XSP, and one connected to PowerHome. This way, the Elk can directly control the lighting in the Insteon network as well as PowerHome.
Hope this helps and let me know if you have any questions.
Dave.
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ph-newbie
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| Posted: December 02 2007 at 15:51 | IP Logged
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Thanks for the reply. That clears a lot of things up. I was confused because the PH-Elk link partially works over an ethernet connection but I now understand you can't download Insteon devices into the Elk that way--only via a null-modem serial link.
To me, and to others who stumble on this thread, a solution to control a relatively small number of Insteon devices with the Elk is to define phantom Digital Outputs on the Elk for the devices you want to control. You can then use those digital outputs as triggers within PH to control the devices. The Digital Outputs can be monitored over ethernet if you have the Elk ethernet interface, or over a serial connection.
The advantage is only one PLC is required, PH can know the the status (update globals, etc.), and no clumsy programming is required in the Elk. You also avoid the extra network traffic a 2nd PLC generates. They don't have to be actual digital outputs--the higher numbered ones that don't physically exist work just fine. The digital outputs can be named for the Insteon device within the Elk Control and used within rules just as you would a lighting device.
The only sigifincant downside is the Elk can't directly control or read the true status of the device, it has to trust PH to keep the Digital Output and device in sync. So, depending on how involved you want to get with the PH programming, it's possible devices could get out of sync. And, obviously, if PH is crashed or not running, nothing will work.
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dhoward
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| Posted: December 03 2007 at 10:22 | IP Logged
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I havent tried it, but you may be able to use the Elk internal lighting devices instead of phantom globals. The default functionality is for the Elk to send X10 commands using a TW-523. Even if this device isnt physically connected, I believe it will still send Elk messages via the serial/ethernet port and PowerHome should be able to trigger on those and then translate to Insteon.
Dave.
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Topic: ELK Ethernet Problems
