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NorthernAl
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| Posted: March 19 2006 at 12:09 | IP Logged
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I am new to PowerHome so I apologize in advance for any misunderstanding of how things are supposed to work.
I am transitioning from X10 to Insteon (as many of you are I suspect). I have two controllers - an Insteon USB PLC and an older X10 FireCracker. By the way I really like how you can choose your controller for each device in PowerHome - brilliant.
Are x10 events not fully implemented through the Insteon PLC though? I have two issues
- I have timed events using ph_x10btn formulas to turn my x10 devices on an off. These devices sometimes use the firecracker and sometimes the PLC (for now my RF receiver and PLC are on different phases and in different parts of house so they can reach different devices successfully). The timed events using ph_x10btn commands for devices though the firecracker seem to work OK. Those through the PLC do not (you can see timed event fire in log but device does not turn on or off). But if I go to the Device Status page I can control every one of those devices successfully. It is like the ph_x10btn command does not successfully send x10 though the plc. Is that possible?
- I have tried some triggers on incoming x10 events but can't get them to work. I see the commands come in on the event log (through the insteon plc as that is only two way controller I have) but the triggers do not fire. Quite possible I have set them up incorrectly but none of my attempts worked. Suggestions?
Another side question I have is about Insteon 'on' vs 'faston'. I tried a macro to turn on an Insteon ApplicanceLinc module but it would not work using an Insteon 'on' command. But the 'faston' would. Comments?
While I am on topic of timed events may I comment, as a complete newbie, on one thing I found confusing and difficult. That is how timed events do not let you directly turn on and off devices. I would imagine that 80 to 99% of the time most people want to use timed events for simple device on/off commands. Since this would be so common I find it difficult that these are not primary commands for timed events. You have to instead use formulas or macros. It would be nice to skip those steps and instead have device control right in timed events (imagine pulling the simple x10 and insteon commands, and the ID and Value columns from the Macro setup page and adding to the timed events page).
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NorthernAl
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| Posted: March 19 2006 at 12:13 | IP Logged
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By the way the subject line should have been
"x10 not fully implemented through the Insteon PLC?"
The "PLC?" got dropped by mistake and change meaning a bit. Sorry!
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 19 2006 at 12:52 | IP Logged
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Al,
I just rechecked the ph_x10btn function and was able to successfully send X10 commands using the Insteon PLC. So it may be an error in your calling of the function. The ph_x10btn function is expecting the ID of the X10 device (sometimes people put in the X10 house/unit code). So if you had an X10 light with an ID of "GARAGE LIGHT" on address B5 that you wanted to turn on, the proper syntax would be: ph_x10btn("GARAGE LIGHT",2,0). Let me know if this works for you and if not, please post the syntax you're using. You can also try using the ph_devicebtn function.
Outgoing X10 using the Insteon PLC should be fully supported except for extended X10 commands. Incoming X10 should be fully supported as well except for extended commands. If we were to setup an incoming trigger for the previous sample "GARAGE LIGHT" (it's on address B5), then the trigger should look like:
ID: Short Descriptive of your choice.
Description: Similar to above.
Action Type: Your choice
Action: Your choice matching the action type
Action Style: Queued (generally always use queued)
Status: Active
Trigger Type: X-10 In
Trigger ID: B
Trigger ID Number: 5
Trigger Value: On
Boolean: 1
Let me know if this works for you or not.
The main difference between "On" and "FastOn" (aside from being two distinct commands in Insteon World) is that Fast On will ignore the level and the ramprate. When sending a "Direct" On command, the controlled device will turn on to the local level using the local ramprate. A "Direct" Fast On command will turn the controlled device on instantly at the fastest ramprate. Using these commands with "Groups" is similar except the local level and ramprate used is the group defined level and ramprate.
Im not sure why faston would work instead of on. Both should work (they will appear to be the same from an Appliance link point of view though). When switching an Insteon switch locally, if it controls (is linked) to other devices, it sends an "on" command. If you "double tap" the on switch locally, it will send a "Fast On". Is this ApplianceLinc linked to any other Insteon device. If so, could you test and see if the "on", "fast on" work any differently from its point of view?
Al, I will add your suggestion to the "to-do" list for the Timed Events. I'll be the first to admit that PowerHome is not the most intuitive program out there but definately provides a lot of power. Ive been working with this for so long, it sometimes takes a fresh set of eyes to point out where some things can be made easier.
Dave.
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NorthernAl
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| Posted: March 19 2006 at 13:25 | IP Logged
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< I just rechecked the ph_x10btn function and was able to successfully send X10 commands using the Insteon PLC. So it may be an error in your calling of the function. >
I do use the correct ID. Here is an example
ph_x10btn("ASH HEATER",xon,0)
Here is an experiment I just did. I changed this x10 device to use the Firecracker controller and set up a oneshot timed event using formula above. When this event fired the heater turned on. I then turned it off using Device Status page.
Then I changed the device definition back to use the Insteon PLC. Set up the same oneshot timed event (but a bit later in time naturally) and waited. The event fired (could see in log and status of device changed on Device Status page) but the device did not actually turn on. To ensure we had OK communication I used Device Status page to turn device on. Is there any difference between hitting the on button on the Device Status page and running the above formula?
< If we were to setup an incoming trigger for the previous sample "GARAGE LIGHT" (it's on address B5), then the trigger should look like:>
I had it set up like this but no-go. I will try again though to be sure before commenting further.
<If you "double tap" the on switch locally, it will send a "Fast On". >
I will give this a try.
<Is this ApplianceLinc linked to any other Insteon device.>
Not yet but I can link it to one of my switches and give it a try.
Thanks for all the help!
Al
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 19 2006 at 13:50 | IP Logged
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Al,
I will check through the code and see how exactly Im turning the device on in the Device Status screen. Im pretty sure Im using either the ph_x10btn or ph_devicebtn formula.
You may want to email me your pwrhome.db database file and I can take a look and see if anything is unusual. I should be able to troubleshoot both the trigger and the ph_x10btn problem.
I'll get back after I check the Device Status screen code.
Dave.
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NorthernAl
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| Posted: March 19 2006 at 14:07 | IP Logged
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The trigger issue I think we can ignore. I got a trigger working with incoming x10 events. I switched the trigger to run formula
ph_devicebtn(INSTEON,"SUBWOOFER",ifastoff,"0") and that works. I think it was the 'faston' vs 'on' problem I mentioned before.
Anyway does not appear to be a trigger or receipt-of-x10-through-plc problem. 
Al
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 20 2006 at 02:00 | IP Logged
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Al,
I checked out the code and the Device Status screen uses the ph_x10btn function to send X10 commands and the ph_insteon function to send Insteon commands. Not sure what's going on.
Glad to hear the trigger is working...though I don't understand why faston would work and not on. Could be a defective device maybe.
In any event, I may be able to see what is going on if you post a section of your SDM log. When you send the ph_x10btn command, save the SDM log and send it to me. I'll check it out and might be able to see what's going on.
Dave.
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nadler
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| Posted: March 20 2006 at 19:23 | IP Logged
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Just to add my 2 cents. I can't use ON or OFF in insteon macros (or any of the other commands in the drop down list) the only commands that work for me in the insteon macro is FASTON and FASTOFF. Maybe its a related bug.
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 20 2006 at 20:47 | IP Logged
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Ok,
Ive been playing around with this trying to determine what could be causing these problems and may have some answers.
Concerning the faston and fastoff vs on and off. The Fast commands go full on or full off regardless of level specified. The on and off commands expect a level. So if you are using a ph_insteon function and have something like:
ph_insteon("CLOSETLIGHT",ion,0)
The light won't turn on. You're telling the light to turn on a 0% (which wont actually do anything because I tested it with an Icon relay). If you want the light to turn full on, you must use the command like this:
ph_insteon("CLOSETLIGHT",ion,255)
I think I may have misled some people in an earlier post concerning this.
Concerning the ph_x10btn...Is the device you're trying to control an X10 only device or is it an Insteon device? If the device is an Insteon with an X10 address assigned, then you must use either Insteon commands to turn it on or you must use raw X10 commands since the ph_x10btn function will only look up the ID in the X10 devices table and doesnt check the Insteon devices table.
Let me know if any of this helps or not.
Dave.
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NorthernAl
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| Posted: March 20 2006 at 22:00 | IP Logged
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dhoward wrote:
Concerning the faston and fastoff vs on and off. The Fast commands go full on or full off regardless of level specified. The on and off commands expect a level. So if you are using a ph_insteon function and have something like:
ph_insteon("CLOSETLIGHT",ion,0)
The light won't turn on. You're telling the light to turn on a 0% (which wont actually do anything because I tested it with an Icon relay). If you want the light to turn full on, you must use the command like this:
ph_insteon("CLOSETLIGHT",ion,255)
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OK, that makes sense (kind of  ). It is not a light via dimmer I am controlling but an ApplicanceLinc. I'll give it a shot.
dhoward wrote:
Concerning the ph_x10btn...Is the device you're trying to control an X10 only device or is it an Insteon device? If the device is an Insteon with an X10 address assigned, then you must use either Insteon commands to turn it on or you must use raw X10 commands since the ph_x10btn function will only look up the ID in the X10 devices table and doesnt check the Insteon devices table.
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They are x10 devices that I can't control through Insteon PLC using formulas (but can via Device Status page). Strange! I will send you part of SDM log when I get a moment to do some testing.
Al
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NorthernAl
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| Posted: April 01 2006 at 12:28 | IP Logged
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NorthernAl wrote:
dhoward wrote:
Concerning the ph_x10btn...Is the device you're trying to control an X10 only device or is it an Insteon device? If the device is an Insteon with an X10 address assigned, then you must use either Insteon commands to turn it on or you must use raw X10 commands since the ph_x10btn function will only look up the ID in the X10 devices table and doesnt check the Insteon devices table.
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They are x10 devices that I can't control through Insteon PLC using formulas (but can via Device Status page). Strange! I will send you part of SDM log when I get a moment to do some testing.
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OK, I think we have conclusion to this now. I did more testing switching an x10 device back and forth between two controlers (an Insteon PLC and an X10 Firecracker). Then tried two ways of controlling device. A formula in a timer and the Device status page. This did not seem to work before but it does now. So in the end there is no problem that I can see. Unless it occurs again we'll just put it down to some misunderstanding on my part!
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dhoward
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| Posted: April 04 2006 at 18:51 | IP Logged
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Al,
I hate those types of problems. Let me know if it pops up again.
Dave.
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Topic: x10 not fully implemented through Insteon
