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UpstateMike
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| Posted: March 06 2006 at 09:25 | IP Logged
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I noticed a new situation yesterday that I am having trouble figuring out. I found I have links that have been working for weeks suddenly going bad on me. Also find I have one switch that cannot be programmed.
A switch had a link record where all the parameters had turned to zero (ramp rate, dim level, etc.) and it was not working. The other link records in the switch were still working OK but I had to delete the bad link and recreate it. This switch was working fine for several weeks prior to the link going bad.
I had a keypad where the link on button 3 stopped working. PowerHome listed button 3 as Not Found under Controllers and I had to rebuild to whole keypad to fix it. This was the first keypad I installed in my system so nothing had been edited on it recently.
I have a pair of switches that I want to cross link but I can't do it. I can create the link from Switch 1 to Switch 2 and it works fine and shows as verified for both controller and responder. When I try to link Switch 2 back to switch 1 it shows controller Not Found. Tried deleting and recreating the link many times and it just will not work. I can control both switches directly through PowerHome with no problem. I can set up the link via tap-tap method and it works but I can't get the link to show as verified in PowerHome.
Am I seeing a switch firmware related issue? Or is there something funny in the latest version of Smarthome Device Manager that is corrupting existing links? I'm not sure how to troubleshoot this and I'm afraid to leave PowerHome running in case more links get corrupted.
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 06 2006 at 11:46 | IP Logged
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Mike,
Those are strange results. Im not entirely certain, but I don't believe the new SDM would be the culprit because Im not using any of it's built in link facilities.
When these links went bad, were you doing any link programming or modification or was PowerHome just humming along and then they just started showing up as bad?
Concerning the KPL, it sounds as if the link truly went bad (or was corrupted by either PowerHome or the SDM) since it showed NOT FOUND in the database as well as not actually controlling it's load. Now what actually corrupted it is a mystery.
The very first link you mention where all the parameters turned to 0, did the actual switch seem to reflect these values?
The last switch problem almost sounds possibly like a communications problem, but Im not sure. Would it be possible for you to start PowerHome fresh (make sure that the SDM shuts down completely) and then try to delete and recreate the link. When all is done and the link shows NOT VERIFIED, can you give me a screenshot and send me the SDM log? I should be able to match up the addresses with the data in the log and might be able to determine what the problem is. This will be the easiest one to start with since it's reproduceable. If I can solve this one, it might shed some light on the others as well.
Let me know,
Dave.
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UpstateMike
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| Posted: March 06 2006 at 13:00 | IP Logged
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I restarted, deleted the link and recreated it and got the same result. I then tried a rebuild and that fixed it! After the rebuild the link shows verified and I can edit the ramp rate and it goes right in. Very strange!
I just found anothe pair (relays this time) where the link works in one direction but not in the other. PowerHome shows everything verified in both directions it just doesn't work from one of them. I assumed that the signal just wasn't getting through from the one switch so I created a tap-tap link to verify it. Problem is the tap-tap created link works fine so it's not a signal strength issue.
I'll do some more experimenting this evening and try to build you a better picture of what I am seeing.
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UpstateMike
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| Posted: March 06 2006 at 13:12 | IP Logged
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I just found another companion switch in the list that showed the level and ramp had turned to 0. the link still showed verified so the record exists in the switch, it was just corrupted. I verified that the switch no longer operated the lights. I then deleted and recreated the link and it started working again immediately.
Not sure yet but it seems like all the links that get corrupted were created manually before I started using PowerHome.
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 06 2006 at 18:30 | IP Logged
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This is all very strange. Im looking forward to any additional information you can provide.
Are you actively creating and updating links in PowerHome or is PowerHome idle and the links are being corrupted.
The next time you find a link that doesnt work (from the switch), if PowerHome says that it is verified, try right-clicking it and hitting the "Reverify" option. If it changes from VERIFIED to NOT FOUND, then we'll know that the problem is truly in the switch.
The one problem switch you had where PowerHome said VERIFIED but the link didn't work, I can easily understand. To explain, I need to give a little background on PowerHome's inner workings.
With the default settings, PowerHome will do a status request on each device every 15 seconds (1 device at a time round robin), so if you have 4 devices, it will get a status request once a minute. Part of the status request is a byte that tells you how many changes have occured to the devices link database (manual or poked). Everytime PowerHome does a status request, it compares this byte with the byte it stored from the previous status request. If they are different, then PowerHome sets a flag for it to scan the devices database. So if you have a large number of Insteon devices (I believe you do), there may be a period of time between a link changing and PowerHome getting around to knowing that the link changed. If PowerHome changes the link though, it updates right away. So this might explain the link not actually working but PowerHome saying it was verified. The "Reverify" will cause PowerHome to check the link right away instead of taking it's time and working it's way around to it.
Anyways, let me know what results you get with any of your testing. Also, if you encounter anything that doesnt make sense (like you create a link with PowerHome and it doesnt work), send me the DM log at that time and I'll analyze it for any inconsistencies. If this problem only started with the latest version of PowerHome, it may be possible that either the SDM or PowerHome has some errant code (the SDM log will actually show the raw commands that PowerHome is sending so it will help me pinpoint a problem with the SDM or PowerHome).
Dave.
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UpstateMike
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| Posted: March 07 2006 at 16:14 | IP Logged
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Today I added another dozen devices and everything has been stable with no new broken links. Hopefully it will stay that way! (fingers crossed)
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 07 2006 at 21:18 | IP Logged
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Mike,
How many total devices do you have now? I know you've got a ton  .
Anyways, keep an eye on it and let me know if you encounter any more wierdness.
Dave.
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UpstateMike
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| Posted: March 07 2006 at 23:32 | IP Logged
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Around 125. (Maybe we need a report that counts the total devices and total Links).
Also might be good to add a device type for RF Lincs even though you can't do anything with them. (Just to keep track of them in the database and add them to a total device count).
Had one strange thing when adding a ControLinc that was cross-linked to a keypad. 1 out of 4 buttons cross-linked did not work. Had to rebuild the ControLinc and delte and remake the bad link to finally get it to work. The other 3 buttons linked fine on the first try.
No more existing links have gone bad today.
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 08 2006 at 04:32 | IP Logged
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Absolutely . Ive got the reports on the to-do list.
Concerning the RF links...I havent looked at mine but do they actually have Insteon addresses?
Did you initially build the ControLinc links with version 1.03.4.7? If not, that would be explain it because the ControLinc turns out that it needs extra bytes written telling it how many devices it currently controls and earlier versions of PowerHome did not write these extra bytes.
Good news on the existing links . That would certainly be a cause for concern with that many devices and links.
Dave.
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Dean
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| Posted: March 08 2006 at 08:08 | IP Logged
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I just got my Insteon PowerLinc 2414U controller. I'm running 1.03.4.7 of PowerHome. I plugged it in, followed the PowerHome Insteon readme to add the controller, restart PowerHome, etc. The SDM applet starts up, didn't see any problems with SDM finding the controller. I followed all the info to do auto discovery: downloaded the code, cleared PLC DB, and turned on Discovery mode. Went to each of the two LampLincs I have (I didn't bring my paper and pencil with me, thought I could keep track of these two in my head), hit the buttons, etc. Came back to PowerHome and turned off discovery mode. I waited, refreshed, waited, refreshed, ... PowerHome didn't find them (I know Dave, I should have carried the paper and pencil with me  ). I added them manually, but I can't do anything under Insteon->Groups->By Controller.
So, as is probably normal for most tech-type folks, we don't often read all the manuals and paperwork. So, I started reading the 1-sheet instruction "manual" that came with the PowerLinc 2414U. It states that Windows 2000/2003 are not supported. Well, I'm running PowerHome under Windows 2003 Server. Windows 2003 seems to have detected the 2414U properly, the SDM loads up and appears to work, PowerHome can apparently download the code to the 2414U, so it appears something is working under 2003.
So, I guess my questions are if anyone else is running PowerHome with Insteon under Windows 2000 or 2003 Server?
What could I be doing wrong (I'm sure I could be doing a lot wrong)? Could the fact that I have the CM11A and the 2414U plugged in be a problem? The 2414U manual mentions this could be a problem. My CM11A is still functioning properly with the 2414U plugged in, so I would expect the 2414U would function OK with the CM11A then.
I have my RF bridges/repeaters (whatever they are called, they come with the Insteon starter kit) installed. The tabletop controller can control the LampLincs, so I don't think I have any defective equipment.
Any suggestions/help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
-Dean
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 08 2006 at 12:34 | IP Logged
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Dean,
It sounds as if you followed everything correctly. I also don't believe that the CM11A would be causing any problems. Nor do I think Windows 2000 or 2003 server should cause any grief either.
Since you were able to add them manually to PowerHome, you should be able to go to the Device Status screen and directly control them from there. You don't need any links showing up in the Group by Controller screen to perform this test as this will use direct commands. See if you are able to control the devices or not.
Let the system run for 5 to 10 minutes. Go to the SDM and save the log files for me. If you could email this to me, I can analyze and should be able to pinpoint whats wrong.
Off the top of my head, thinking of the steps you took, I can think of one possibility. Since Auto Discover didnt work for you and you added the devices manually, after everything was restarted, etc. you would need to go to your Insteon Device (Unit) screen, right-click, and open the "Insteon DM Control" window. Use the last button "Add ID's to PLC". This is performed automatically if auto discovery is used but is not done for you if the devices are added manually. This may be holding up your whole system.
Anyways, if that doesnt do it, definately email me the SDM log. If that does take care of the problem, it doesnt address why auto-discover didnt work. What I would do there, is attempt auto-discovery again and then email me the SDM log after trying to auto-discover. I should be able to identify whats going on. The auto-discover won't add the devices twice (same address and will violate a unique constraint), but I should be able to see the attempt in the SDM log.
Let me know and we'll get it working.
Dave.
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Dean
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| Posted: March 08 2006 at 22:16 | IP Logged
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Dave,
Also sent this to your email with attachment, adding it to this thread for the benefit (or amusement) of others.
I believe I made some progress. I unplugged some stereo equipment
near the Insteon 2414U and then I was able to auto-discover my two
LampLinc modules. Perhaps they were interfering with the controller.
The links by group screen only shows one LampLinc, I would expect it
to show both. I left PowerHome running for about an hour and it still
did not show up. I also don't see Verified for both the controller
and the responder.
I also noticed a bunch of the following in the SDM log:
"PLC:srq:SRIR=send failed". Not sure what it is, but anytime I see
failed or failure, I don't think it is good.
When at the device status screen, I see the two Insteon LampLincs,
both showing On, even though I only have a lamp plugged into one of
them. Clicking Off or On for the LampLinc that does have a lamp has
very slow response. I am assuming that the PLC is sending and
resending until it gets an acknowledgement that the light goes on or
off.
Lastly, not sure if this matters, but it might. I have my main
electrical panel in my garage. This panel has an X10 Leviton phase
coupler/repeater installed. I also have a 60 amp sub-panel in my
basement with no coupler/repeater. My X10 CM11a, and now the Insteon
2414U controller, are on a circuit in my basement off the sub-panel.
I don't have any problems with the CM11a controlling devices on
circuits off the main panel. The two Insteon repeaters (or whatever
they are called) are on two different phases off my main panel.
Any light you can shed on my problem would be appreciated.
Thanks,
-Dean
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 08 2006 at 23:23 | IP Logged
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Dean,
Got your email and your attachments. A couple of things don't look good.
First, based upon your post, it sounds as if you were definately having some communication problems with the stereo equipment. I havent experienced problems myself, but I have read of others with this exact type of problem, primarily associated with computer power supplies.
Ive analyzed your log and I see what you mean. Towards the beginning of your log, the communication seems to be fairly good. I did see one failure. However towards the end of the log, it was getting really bad. I don't know if you tried plugging the stereos back in or what might have caused it, but your communications went to hell.
Im also guessing that the lamplinc without the load attached is at address 01.41.E5. I see where you were controlling if on, off, 50%, 75%, etc. However, everytime a status request was performed, it told PowerHome that the light was full on. Either this is the default behaviour of Lamp modules with no load connected or somethings wrong though I wouldnt think communications would be causing this as the command is ACKed.
If 01.41.E5 is the unit without a load, then it would appear that a load has to be connected in order for an accurate status return which may also account for the very slow response times (when the communications were working, they appeared to be happening at a reasonable speed, however, it's hard to tell the speed from the log...it just looked normal).
With that aside, do you have links created in both controllers? The group by controller screen will only show links if they've been created. If you havent created any links, then this screen should be blank.
However, as you can see it's not. Your 01.41.E5 device is showing that it has two links for a non-existant device. Either you really have this device 01.7E.1F and it's not entered in PowerHome or the device has leftover crud from the factory (Ive heard this is fairly common). I would either perform a factory reset on the device or use PowerHome to delete the links.
Since you've only got two lamplincs, I would just go ahead and perform a factory reset on both. Then go to the Insteon device screen, right-click and open the Insteon DM control. Click on the "Clear PowerHome Insteon Groups". Exit. In the Insteon Device screen, right-click again and select "Scan All Device Database". Press "F5".
What this will do is wipe out any links that PowerHome has discovered in it's database (doesnt change anything actually in the devices...the factory reset should do that) and then tells PowerHome to rescan the database of all your devices. After about 5 minutes, the Group by Controller screen should still be blank. If so, then you know you're starting fresh and you can start using PowerHome to create the links that you want.
Concerning the panel and subpanel, I can't really comment as this is not an area where Im qualified.
To sum it up...you've definately got some communication problems. Apparently the stereo equipment, possibly some other problem equipment as well.
You've got a modules without a load. It would appear that a status request of a lamplinc without a load will always return full on.
One of your modules has garbage links. A factory reset, PowerHome flush and rescan should fix this.
I think this will be a good set of steps to follow next. Let me know your results and we'll continue on from there.
Dave.
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Dean
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| Posted: March 09 2006 at 11:49 | IP Logged
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See my comments below.
dhoward wrote:
However towards the end of the log, it was getting really bad. I don't know if you tried plugging the stereos back in or what might have caused it, but your communications went to hell.
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No, I didn't plug the stereo equipment back in.
dhoward wrote:
Im also guessing that the lamplinc without the load attached is at address 01.41.E5.
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No, actually 01.41.E5 is the LampLinc with the load.
dhoward wrote:
If 01.41.E5 is the unit without a load, then it would appear that a load has to be connected in order for an accurate status return which may also account for the very slow response times (when the communications were working, they appeared to be happening at a reasonable speed, however, it's hard to tell the speed from the log...it just looked normal).
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Response time from turning on the light from withing PowerHome until the light came on varried from a couple seconds to 10 seconds or so. Same for turning off.
dhoward wrote:
With that aside, do you have links created in both controllers?
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I hadn't created any links at all, I think they must have been there from the factory as you mentioned. Is SmartHome selling previously returned products as new? (Rhetorical question, no need to answer.)
dhoward wrote:
Since you've only got two lamplincs, I would just go ahead and perform a factory reset on both. Then go to the Insteon device screen, right-click and open the Insteon DM control. Click on the "Clear PowerHome Insteon Groups". Exit. In the Insteon Device screen, right-click again and select "Scan All Device Database". Press "F5".
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This removed the links and the controller screen was still blank after 30 minutes. I think I will make it a standard practice to do a factory reset on any Insteon devices I purchase. I was able to control the light in the LampLinc using PowerHome without any noticable problems, but I will need to do more thorough testing. I still see failure messages in the SDM log. Probably still have noise on the power line from something.
I noticed another interesting thing I since plugging in Insteon devices. I have an X10 Leviton 6381 (I believe this is the correct model) In Wall Decora Light switch with Local DIM. This light switch has vertical lights on the left of the switch showing the DIM level. This DIM level light flashes and jumps around intermittantly/sporadically when I have the Insteon LampLincs and/or SignalLincs plugged in. Anyone see any such strange things with any of their X10 switches that may have lights on them?
Lastly, for this message at least, do I really need the SignalLincs? I understand they are to bridge the two electrical phases in my house. I installed them as the instructions indicated. If I can believe the two outlets the SignalLincs indicate are on different phases is correct, I plugged a LampLinc in one of the outlets and the tabletop controller in the other and was able to turn the light on and off without the SignalLincs installed. I don't know the details of X10 and Insteon as far as wavelenghts and stuff travelling over the powerline, but could it be that my Leviton X10 coupler/repeater are actually bridging the phases for Insteon as well?
I'll play around with Insteon some more and see how it goes. Thanks for your great support Dave.
-Dean
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 09 2006 at 20:46 | IP Logged
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Dean,
WOW...it definately sounds as if you have some communication problems. A couple of seconds or more is way to long. Insteon, while not being instantaneous, is certainly much quicker than that.
What is bizarre about that lamp module is that I could see where you were sending dim commands to the lamp and they were being accepted and then a status query command would come right after and that returned the lamp as being full on. I even saw this after you had sent some "off" commands. Either something is very flaky communication wise or perhaps the device itself is defective.
My understanding is that the X-10 bridges are not effective for Insteon (at least the active ones...don't know why the passive ones wouldnt work). Ive heard that people sometimes use a bridge that is commonly used for UPB. Anyways, I know some people do not use the SignaLincs and there Insteon works just fine, so YMMV. With the problems you're having, I would definately try not using them as well as try moving them around to several different locations. With only two Insteon devices, the network is probably not as strong as it could be. Ive seen the number thrown around somewhere that the average house needs about 6 for the simulcasting to be adequately strong. Don't quote me as I don't remember where I saw that and it may be completely bogus.
Let me know how your testing goes.
Dave.
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Dean
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| Posted: March 13 2006 at 21:44 | IP Logged
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I worked a bit on my communication problems this past weekend. Prior to acquiring any Insteon stuff, I had installed a second SmartHome ToggleLinc 2-way switch. Ever since then some lights that used to be controlable via X10/PowerHome stopped working. So I have two ToggleLinc's with BoosterLinc, both on the same circuit. One with the BoosterLinc enabled, one disabled. Apparently, adding this second ToggleLinc must have attenuated the X10 signals on this circuit to the point that some X10 devices were not getting signals, even with my Leviton coupler/repeater installed. So I removed the second ToggleLinc and my X10 stuff that stopped working started working again.
I proceeded to plug in my Insteon LampLincs...those same devices that started working stopped working again. So this part of my house, I am assuming, must be pretty far from where my X10 CM11A and PowerHome live and probably on the opposite AC phase.
Then I moved the ToggleLinc I previously removed to another part of my house with the BoosterLinc functionality enabled. My X10 lights that stopped working started working yet again, even with the Insteon LampLincs installed. I then installed the SignalLincs and the X10 lights still work.
So, what did I learn from this? I'm not sure, except that the communication problems were solved by trial and error and a bunch of luck. Well, at least until I plug in a coffee pot or something else and all goes batty again. I still have to actually do some more testing with PowerHome and Insteon. This whole linking stuff is getting me confused.
One thing though, and I know I mentioned this before, is that Insteon is driving the LED lights on my one Leviton switch crazy. If I unplug Insteon LampLincs/SignalLincs, all is well.
-Dean
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TonyNo
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| Posted: March 13 2006 at 22:24 | IP Logged
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FYI, I tried connecting my SignaLinc's here, but they killed my X10 devices on the opposite phase from my CM11A. No X10 coupler installed yet. I s'pose I can try that later.
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dhoward
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:50 | IP Logged
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It certainly sounds as if the communications need to be "just right". Ive read of others with similar problems to yours and Tony's and sounds as if it doesnt get better until you reach a certain saturation level of Insteon devices. Of course, then your remaining X10 devices no longer communicate.
Dean, I'll check on CocoonTech, but I thought I remembered someone else with the same problem with the blinking LED lights. If I remember correctly, the Insteon traffic was causing the blinking. PowerHome is constantly sending background Insteon traffic and apparently when you unplug a SignaLinc or LampLinc, the signal is attenuated enough that it doesnt cause the blinking. Since every Insteon device is a repeater, taking a LampLinc out of the equation may weaken the signal just enough.
Dave.
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PowerHome Messageboard : PowerHome General
Topic: Strange Insteon Problems
