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groston
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| Posted: November 05 2007 at 17:04 | IP Logged
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All,
I am completely new to home automation (but not automation - I was a founding member of the NASA Mars Rover team). Anyway...
Today, I received my Insteon PowerLinc controller (2414U) and a couple of Icon On/Off switches (2876B). I also downloaded and installed PH.
I had no problem finding the controller. However, when I installed the switch, it was not found. I tried both manual entry and automatic discovery - neither worked. The log indicated that communication was never established.
So, first question: The installation notes for the switch indicate that two Signal Extenders (#2842P) must be installed. Why? I thought that the whole idea of the Insteon system is that the signals run over the electrical power lines.
Second question: What can I do to get things working?
Electrical layout: There is a dedicated circuit in my panel that feeds a quad-outlet and a CO alarm. Plugged into this outlet is a UPS and a cable amplifier. There is a power strip plugged into the UPS. (This is the only electrical outlet that is convenient - I could try another is necessary.) This circuit and the circuit into which the switch is installed are on opposite power phases.
Thank you.
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Gerald P. Roston
gerry (at) pairofdocs (dot) net
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AllanMar
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| Posted: November 05 2007 at 17:17 | IP Logged
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Insteon still requires Signal couplers to bridge the two phases. Insteon is dual mesh, so it can use RF & Powerlinc however the switches only use powerline at the moment and the only RF devices are the Signal Extenders/Access Points and the remotelinc.
You however mentioned the biggest problem people usually have. UPS attentuates X10 & Insteon powerline signals BIG TIME. If you have it plugged into the UPS then you can almost gaurentee it won't work well. For best results you will likely need a Filter to plug the UPS into. However just locating the PLC before the UPS MAY work. The fact that your switch and PLC are on opposite phases and you don't have a RF bridge isn't good though.
I think you can get 2 Access points (will bridge phases) and a remotelinc for $79 now, not a bad deal.
Try relocating if possible, signal issues are most likely your problem.
Edited by AllanMar - November 05 2007 at 17:19
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nadler
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| Posted: November 05 2007 at 17:19 | IP Logged
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The Signal Extenders make it possible for the insteon signal to span both power phases. If they are not installed your setup won't work. Also, note that the 2842P have been replaced by Access Points which add practical RF functionality. So get Smarthome to exchange these if you can.
HTH,
Noel
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BeachBum
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| Posted: November 05 2007 at 17:20 | IP Logged
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Hey, nothing silly we all have been there... If you haven't read the Quick Start Guide you can find it at C:\Program Files\powerhome. The Signal Extenders are another way to couple across 2 phases. They also broadcast in the air so it is kind of a backup to power line transmission. There are allot more of in-depth people that will respond so you will be up and running with no problem.
I am a slow typer.....
Edited by BeachBum - November 05 2007 at 17:21
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: November 06 2007 at 08:32 | IP Logged
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Nadler, saying the setup WON'T work isn't necessarily true. There are some people that have setups working without accesslincs or signallincs and they are on a split-phase setup like the rest of us. Why it does work on some I don't know. Granted, 99% of the time you'll probably have to have them 
Just wanted to correct a blanket statement.
and on a side note, I CAN ACTUALLY POST again.. Thanks Dave for fixing that. I figured it was some silly proxy/firewall issue at work again.
Edited by cmhardwick - November 06 2007 at 08:34
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Cicero, Enjoying automation!
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BeachBum
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| Posted: November 06 2007 at 09:01 | IP Logged
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Cicero,
It may be for the same reason it also works for X10. That is if a 220 device is active then the phase coupling will occur. Active like in hot water heaters, dryers, cooktops and ranges.
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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nadler
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| Posted: November 06 2007 at 09:11 | IP Logged
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Here is the Powerline bridging information from the Insteon White Paper. Draw your own conclusions:
"INSTEON devices that can use both the INSTEON Powerline protocol and the
INSTEON RF protocol solve a significant problem encountered by devices that can
only communicate via the powerline. Powerline signals originating on the opposite
powerline phase from a powerline receiver are severely attenuated, because there is
no direct circuit connection for them to travel over.
A traditional solution to this problem is to connect a signal coupling device between
the powerline phases, either by hardwiring it in at a junction box or by plugging it
into a 220 VAC outlet. INSTEON automatically solves the powerline phase coupling
problem through the use of INSTEON devices capable of both powerline and RF
messaging. INSTEON RF messaging bridges the powerline phases whenever at least
one INSTEON PL/RF device is installed on each powerline phase."
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bhlonewolf
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| Posted: November 06 2007 at 09:38 | IP Logged
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In my house, I had no problems running w/o Signalincs in a recent test. Why this is, I have no idea. It could be the signal on the other leg was extremely weak, but for my tests, worked. It could be the signal was able to get all the way out to the transformer and work its way back in-- or, another possibility that I just thought of: my oven is electric and has a panel that's always on, it could be bridging the phases.
In any event, you need Access Points for RF support, so you might as well get the bridging capability too. Of course, that only means the RemoteLinc for the time being, however, I imagine this will expand over time.
It would be great to get RF repeaters (a la ZWave) built into switches, eliminating this need altogether.
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crisx
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| Posted: November 06 2007 at 11:27 | IP Logged
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I'm in the "Don't need the ugly Signalincs/Access Points club"
They're still in the boxes. I have been running an Insteon network in my home for well over a year with almost no communication problems. I thought I might need them when I added insteon switches to my shop, about 75 feet away from the house, but everything still worked fine. I guess I'll need to put them in if I ever get a Remotelinc.
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TonyNo
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| Posted: November 06 2007 at 13:33 | IP Logged
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Another "no SignaLinc" person chiming in...
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AllanMar
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| Posted: November 06 2007 at 13:57 | IP Logged
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The main reason you do or don't need phase coupling is typically noise. Very rarely do the insteon signals not make it to the other phase. Even if they have to travel to the transformer. However, if you have anything noisey on the opposite phase the already reduced signal becomes further reduced. Alot of people's 220 appliances help with this aswel. Turning your stove/dryer on can also help troubleshoot if you need a phase coupler.
I didn't need my signallinc's however I later added them to improve a very ocasionally picky switch. They are very useful for placing on specific circuits that seem to have problems.
However in the case of the original poster. With only a few insteon devices and noisey products like a UPS it's likely he'll need a SignalLincs/AccessPoints and they even have a wire-in insteon coupler now.
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TonyNo
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| Posted: November 06 2007 at 19:15 | IP Logged
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Great point. If the number of Insteon devices is low, you may need SignaLincs more. Looking back at the OP, he says he has "a couple".
Gerald, PM me if you want. Since I don't need them, I have two new SignaLincs that I can sell to you.
Edited by TonyNo - November 06 2007 at 19:19
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Topic: Silly newbie question
