| Author |
|
NorthernAl
Groupie
Joined: March 19 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: March 13 2007 at 21:59 | IP Logged
|
|
|
I know there have been a few threads like this one but bear with me. One such thread being the “Harmony Remote and Zwave” where nadler seems to being doing just what I want. First, I thought it would be useful to spell out the steps a bit more for those following in my footsteps. Second, I don’t have a complete solution and my problem does not appear to be answered elsewhere so hopefully somebody can help.
Situation:
-TV and AV equipment in living room.
-Harmony 676 Remote to control AV equip
-Insteon devices throughout house
-PowerHome running on PC in den
-I want to control my Insteon devices from living room using Harmony Remote
-I did not want to wait any longer for SmartHome’s empty promises on an IR bridge ;-)
Purchased
-USB-UIRT from www.usbuirt.com
-X-10 Powermid (pyramid IR range extenders)
Idea
To program PowerHome to trigger on IR events from USB-UIRT, sent from Harmony remote in living room through Powermid to den, to control macros and Insteon devices.
Progress
It has been frustrating but I have learned some useful things. No complete solution yet unfortunately. I can now control my Insteon devices through PowerHome macros using the Harmony remote if I am in the den (ie. not using the Powermids but aiming remote directly at the USB-UIRT).
What I learned
- the Harmony remote is not the best remote to learn IR codes from (through the USB-URIT in PH) but can be done
- see note below that I received from smarty - some very useful information there
- there is a useful utility on the usb-uirt site for watching IR events called LrnHelpe: www.usbuirt.com/lrnhelper_0_0_5.zip
- you can improve the ability to use the Harmony for learning if you pick a stable profile (advice given to me by USB-UIRT developer). Suggestion was to pick a Sony or Panasonic device in Harmony configuration as they produce ‘cleaner’ and more consistent IR codes.
- I had first chosen the X10 IR bridge in the Harmony config as my fake device but the Harmony does not seem to produce consistent IR codes for this device.
- the problem I have is that I want to use a set of IR codes that do not match any AV equipment I have or will have in the future. I want a set of IR codes that are only for Insteon control. One problem arises because I don’t have an original remote control to learn from and must use the Harmony to learn from.
- I chose a Sony tape drive (SonyTC-WE435) as my ‘fake device’ in the Harmony config. It seems to produce consistent IR codes sent by the Harmony remote and it is a device I don’t have and don’t plan on having
- I set up an activity in the Harmony config called “Insteon” and set up action buttons like “Living Light On”, “Living Light Off”, etc and assigned them to arbitrary Sony tape commands (like Forward, Stop, Fast Forward, etc.)
Now to PowerHome
- I set up the USB-UIRT in the Explorer/Setup/Controller, and a new device in the Explorer/Devices/IR
- In the PH IR Equipment details page I added a bunch of IR commands for on and off of each insteon device (living light on, living light off, sub woofer on, sub woofer off, etc.)
- Autolearn and Record in PH in the IR Equipment details do not seem to work for this setup (perhaps they work well for learning outgoing codes but that is not my requirement here)
- Turn on ‘Enable Remote Control’ in the PH Setup/IR Controller dialog - Reinitalize PH
- Aim Harmony remote at USB-UIRT from reasonable distance (3 to 5 feet) - ie not the learning distance (which is a couple of inches). Press and hold the button you want to learn for about 5 seconds (the light on the usb-uirt should be flashing rapidly)
- Go to the PH log and you should see a bunch of ‘Incoming IR’ log entries and a bunch should have identical codes
- copy that code into the PH IR Equipment details Incoming code field (outgoing code can remain blank - in this case I am interested in incoming control of PH only)
- set up a PH trigger using an ‘IR In’ type using the trigger id of the device set up above - get it to fire a macro for example
- now I can push that same button on Harmony remote aimed at the USB-UIRT, and the trigger will fire the macro (and you can follow along in the log)
- one thing I learned that is obvious now was that you can’t really fire toggle type macros using an IR remote. I had some macros that first check the status of an insteon device and then do the opposite (ie. if device is off, turn it on, etc.). I had the IR command trigger this macro. Problem is that not one IR command gets sent for one button push (esp. on Harmony) so what would happen is one button press would turn light on and then right back off again (and sometimes back on, back off, …;-) ). There might be a way around this in the macro by throwing out events for the next 4 seconds but at this point I figured that was too complex. So I have two buttons set up in the Harmony for each insteon device (one on and one off).
Where I am now stuck
The next step is to get remote control signal from living room to den using the Powermid IR extenders. The problem now seems to be that the Powermid changes the IR signals enough that the codes PH sees from the USB-UIRT are all different (for same button press). The Powermids do work for normal device control (i.e. I can put the receiver in front of my AV equipment and with the transmitter and Harmony in a different room and control my AV equipment). The AV equipment has ability to interpret the core of the IR messages to get the job done. PowerHome I suspect is using a stricter method of matching on incoming IR and so will not trigger from USB-URIT incoming events if the Powermid is used to transmit those codes.
I can see this difference easily in the log:
- Put Harmony remote in front of the USB-UIRT and press a button a few times.
- Look in the PH log and the received IR events all have identical codes.
- Do the same thing with the Powermid in the middle and the codes are all different for same button being pressed. PH will not trigger on this.
So my grand plan to come up with an IR to Insteon bridge is currently stymied.
Anybody have any ideas?
Al
Correspondence from smarty that he gave me OK to post:
------ start ------
Al,
Yes, I believe I have gotten this to work rather nicely. I'll try to help where I can.
First, lets make sure I understand your stated problem. You say "I can't record or autolearn the IR codes from the Harmony through the UIRT in PH. Get time out messages, etc."
This doesn't surprise me. From my notes I wrote to myself: IR: as for IR protocal types, "UIRT RAW" is OK, "PRONTO" is also ok and is a "generic" format. I have noticed that different remotes seem to put out one of three types of IR "beams". Type 1 remotes are such that a long button press on the remote results in a short blink from the USB-UIRT. Type 2 are such that a long remote button press results in steady red light (rather than a fast blink) on the USB-UIRT. Type 3 remotes are such that a long remote button press results in a flashing red light on the USB-UIRT. Type 3 remotes DO NOT WORK WELL with the UIRT. THE HARMONY IS A TYPE 3 REMOTE (caution: there is no such thing as a type 1,2, or 3 remote, I just made up this designation based on how all my different remotes responded to the usbuirt).
The GOOD NEWS is that YOU SHOULD NEVER NEED TO LEARN from the Harmony remote. Let me explain. By using the Harmony web center, I assume you have all your devices set up in the Harmony remote. Hopefully you also still have the actual remotes from most of the devices. If you "learn" from the ACTUAL remotes, you WILL have better luck (all of my many original/actaul remotes were type 1 or 2, and the UIRT had no issues learning them). Then, when I use my harmony with the proper device selected, PH DOES recogize the IR as the code it learned with the original remote.
Side note on learing with the UIRT: I have found that I have to have the uirt and the remote about 2" apart for the learning to work. Farther apart gave me issues.
Hope this helps. Please copy this into the forum, it may help others. I will respond more there.
Steve
---------- end ---------
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
nadler
Super User
Joined: February 25 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
|
| Posted: March 14 2007 at 08:09 | IP Logged
|
|
|
NorthernAl,
I am doing exactly the same thing, including using the powermids.
"So I have two buttons set up in the Harmony for each insteon device (one on and one off)."
I have also found the need for an on and off button.
"The problem now seems to be that the Powermid changes the IR signals enough that the codes PH sees from the USB-UIRT are all different (for same button press)"
In my setup the powermids DO NOT change the IR signal. So the harmony that works directly through the USB-UIRT also works directly through the powermids.
I learned the codes a little differently from the way you learned them. I actually had an old remote from an old VCR I wasn't using and learned each command through the harmony on the logitech site. Then I pointed the now reprogrammed harmony at the USB-UIRT and looked at PH to see what code it sent. Depending on the distance from the USB-UIRT and the length of button press I sometimes got different codes, so I picked the most consistent code and used that. Having said the above it seems to me you way should have worked just as well.
I have found the powermids to be problematic in a couple of ways, but not the way you mention. I've had to place the powermid receiver about 3-4 FEET away from the USB-UIRT and point it AWAY from the USB-UIRT. The powermid seems to send a lot of garbage IR (probably line interference). If I put the Powermid close to the USB-UIRT, it overwhelms PH with bogus signals. This sometimes actually freezes PH. This was true even if I attached an IR emitter to the powermid and put that in front of the USB-UIRT with the Powermid receiver far away. So, one suggestion would be to move the Powermid far away from the USB-UIRT and see if that makes a difference. I also think the USB-UIRT is a very sensitive receiver. I will eventually find another IR solution as I am not happy with the powermids.
Hope this helps.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Ktulu
Newbie
Joined: March 14 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 25
|
| Posted: March 14 2007 at 11:16 | IP Logged
|
|
|
I just completed a similar setup Sunday and had some of the same issues.
My setup consists of the following...
AV equipment in living room
Harmony 880
USB-UIRT
USB to Cat5 Extender
PowerHome server in basement
I started out trying to learn remote codes from a old Pioneer DVD player remote just to see if things were working. Learning was difficult and turning on a light required long button presses on the remote. I also downloaded the little IR learning utility to get some insight into what was going on.
Thinking that the setup was working but I didn't have the best remote for the job I programmed the Harmony for a Panasonic DVD recorder that I'll never own. Learning was much easier with the Harmony. Maybe it was SO bad with the Pioneer remote that the Harmony seemed easy but I have no complaints.
I set up PowerHome to toggle the lights with a single button push (more on that later). Single short pushes of the remote buttons sometimes caused the light to switch on and off. I found this was do to the Harmony being programmed to repeat the codes too fast (or something like that).
To change this setting I hooked up the remote back up to my PC and browsed to "More Options" under the Insteon (Panasonic DVD recorder) device. Then "Troubleshoot" --> "Show me more problems" --> "Insteon doesn't appear to receive every command correctly" --> "The device responds too much to some commands" and I lowered the number to "1". There might be an easier way to get to this setting but I'm not aware of it at this time.
After changing that setting I'm able to switch the lights on or off, depending on their state, with a single button push.
PowerHome setup....
At first I set up PowerHome to execute a macro per each IR command but for some reason this would crash the SDM and/or lock up the PLC (not sure what's going on here). The formula, which I don't have at my disposal right now, verifies and switched the light on and off during verification but when I launch that macro from the IR command it crashes. I'm not sure if I tried it after changing the remote settings but I just started using triggers instead.
I set up triggers for each of the lights I want to control from the remote and a few "scenes" encompassing a few lights in the formula. One of the triggers contains the same formula from the macro that was so much trouble and it works fine.
So there you have it. There will almost certainly be refinements in the future but I'm pretty happy with my IR/Insteon setup so far. I'm not sure if this will help anyone but it may. I'm curious to know if launching a macro from an IR command crashes everyone's stuff or just mine. I'd also like to know if using the triggers is the best/preferred method of handling incoming IR commands or if there is a better way to do it. That might be in the manual but I only refer to it when something's NOT working.
__________________
Jeff
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit" - Cicero
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
nadler
Super User
Joined: February 25 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
|
| Posted: March 14 2007 at 15:13 | IP Logged
|
|
|
"I'm curious to know if launching a macro from an IR command crashes everyone's stuff or just mine."
I have reported something similar. If I have a PH macro which is triggered after receiving IR from the USB-UIRT and the macro contains a command to then SEND an IR command through the USB-UIRT, many times PH freezes and so does the PLC and I have to reset everything. I even put "wait" commands in the macros but altho that helped a little, still got hangups. Eventually I just eliminated the necessity to do IR receive/send by using RS232 to send the necessary commands.
Now, however, if I happen to send a bunch of IR commands quickly in a row, the macros seem to stall in the execution queue and PH no longer executes macros. Everything else in PH works (i.e. triggers) but macros do not.
Based on your experience I'm going to try the same commands in a Trigger formula rather than a macro and see if I have the stalling problem. Also, I'm going to check my existing macros to see if I have any immediate commands and change them to post. I realize from reading another message thread that if an immediate command is not executed it will stall the queue, but the macro will continue to execute if post is used instead.
P.S. if you get a chance, post the formula for the 1 button ir on/off command.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
NorthernAl
Groupie
Joined: March 19 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: March 14 2007 at 21:39 | IP Logged
|
|
|
Further information on using powermid and USB-UIRT:
I am figuring out that this combo is also tricky to set up and get working well (for receiving IR) because a) the USB-UIRT is very senstive, and b) the powermid constantly spews out IR noise.
I have seen the same stream of IR event noise in PH that nadler has seen with powermids and USB-UIRT.
Taking this to heart I have been playing with ways to attenuate the signal (and hopefully the noise) so PH does not get so many bogus IR events and to hopefully clean up the transmission of real IR commands.
No definite answer yet but I have been able to get a few commands from my harmony, through the powermid, to usb-uirt to trigger in PH! How? By covering the USB-UIRT with two layers of kleenex! Not very scientific but progress. When I know more I will post again.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
TonyNo
Moderator Group
Joined: December 05 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2889
|
| Posted: March 14 2007 at 21:57 | IP Logged
|
|
|
Now that is a high-class work-around! 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Ktulu
Newbie
Joined: March 14 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 25
|
| Posted: March 15 2007 at 14:10 | IP Logged
|
|
|
nadler, ok it's not just me experiencing this strange behavior. I guess that's good and bad.
Here's the raw formula I use in my triggers to toggle Insteon on/off...
Code:
if(ph_getinsteonstat("BACK PORCH") = 2,ph_insteon("BACK PORCH",ioff,0), ph_insteon("BACK PORCH",ion,255))
|
|
|
Where BACK PORCH = the device ID for the Insteon device you want to toggle.
Like I said my lights were sometimes turning on and off with one push until I changed the Harmony setting detailed above.
__________________
Jeff
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit" - Cicero
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
nadler
Super User
Joined: February 25 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
|
| Posted: March 15 2007 at 14:34 | IP Logged
|
|
|
Ktula, thanks for the code. Its similar to code I use in the control center for one button toggle on and off. Never thought to use it for IR, though.
Thanks.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
NorthernAl
Groupie
Joined: March 19 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: March 17 2007 at 16:27 | IP Logged
|
|
|
A follow on to my original posts and my findings to date.
I don't think I can recommend using the Powermid with the USB-UIRT for receiving commands. The Powermid spews too much IR noise and the sensitive UIRT picks it all up and can overwhelm things. Command receipt reliability is low and the PH log fills up with IR In events.
By wrapping the USB UIRT in some brown paper (a few layers) I can have the powermid and USB-UIRT a couple of inches apart and most commands sent via my Harmony through the powermid are recieved correctly. Not perfect but it sort of works. The wrapping of the receiver reduces a bit of noise and number of IR In events in PH. Unfortunately I think it also reduces number of good commands that get through too. It does appear to be better than having no attenuation of the IR signal though, as in that case IR command receipt almost never works.
Basically I have a system that mostly works but it is not robust enough. Hence I don't think Powermid and USB-UIRT for receiving commands into PH is a great solution. The Powermid, USB-UIRT combo might work fine for sending IR commands (as other can attest) but I don't use that capability.
A USB extender over CAT5 cable might be better solution (when your PH computer and remote control are not in same room) but I can't string wire in this case.
I will update later if I am able to improve the robustness.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
dhoward
Admin Group
Joined: June 29 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4447
|
| Posted: March 19 2007 at 17:09 | IP Logged
|
|
|
Ive been having my own woes with the PowerMids as well. They are highly sensitive to noise. Sunlight is picked up and repeated, the kitchen flourescent is picked up and repeated, and apparently the IR on my notebook computer that I program on the couch with is being picked up and repeated (I should be able to switch that off in Windows though).
While I don't use IR for PowerHome remote control (I prefer to use a palmpad with the W800RF32), I can see where it would cause alot of problems when being done through the PowerMid. I believe someone earlier suggested learning through the PowerMid if that is the way the IR will be coming to the USB-Uirt. I can concur that this would be the proper method for this type of arrangement since retransmission through the PowerMid would create slight variations in the received code.
The best way to solve this type of problem is most likely going to be hardwiring the IR signals in some form. While this is probably not an option for most people, one of these days, I'll get around to playing with it to see if any better results can be obtained.
If anyone else has any other ideas on how to deal with this type of situation, please post your findings. While the PowerMid's seem to work OK for relaying commands to IR equipment, they are less than ideal for going the other way. Perhaps a different IR controller would be less susceptible to PowerMid variations. The only other ones that can be tested though would be the RedRat3 and Ocelot. Maybe we'll learn more when I get the Global Cache going.
Dave.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Active Topics 
Memberlist 
Search 
Help
Register 
Login
PowerHome Messageboard : PowerHome General
Topic: Controlling Insteon from a Harmony Remote
