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gregoryx
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| Posted: October 28 2006 at 20:34 | IP Logged
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Posted this at Cocoontech originally since Dave'd seen my previous posts there... but hadn't seen relevant feedback there yet, so I'm posting here. :)
I ended up "explaining" later on CT, so I'll start with it here: these are "raw notes" expressing good and bad things; no judgement intended, per se.
I'd really welcome feedback on aspects that I simply did not figure out correctly - such as KPL and group stuff, which I'm still rather stuck on.
Keep up the good work, Dave!
Thanks!
Finally spent some time with the recent PH release, which has the new Insteon Explorer in it. That's the only piece I was really reviewing.
I found some things I really like and some I really don't and some that seem like a good start and I'd expect to change.
My raw notes:
Notes
"Tab Scrollbars"
When I turned on "tab scrollbars" it messed up the tab views a bit if a given tab was scrolled at the time
"tab scrollbars" makes reports unreadable - they are scroll-happy.
The "<> Remove Ctlr" thing on links is WAY to the right.
Misc Notes:
really like the "pending operations" and "completed operations" and "sdm log" stuff. Very useful information.
Pending operations should have option to eliminate or otherwise isolate recurring pending operations, such as regular polling.
Same for completed operations. I don't want to see recurring pending or completed UNLESS there's something wrong with them like too many NAKs or whatever.
TX lines should not be red. Red is bad. Should be green or blue or something.
If TX colored, RX should be colored something else. only NAKs or other errors should be red.
Even better, user-selectable based on config preferences
LOVE the idea of tracking NAK/ACK count.
Don't like the method of getting Insteon devices in.
Data entry or auto-learn only?
Should have spidering.
Should have option to learn from attached PLC device.
Should have import device option (with defaults to ID and description or whatever other required data fields).
Don't like that a missed critical field causes the whole record to be deleted and start over. Should have a default value. If the field is a unique field, the software should create a default unique field data element.
Links:
Shouldn't require "refresh" to see devices already created in the Devices (middle) section.
The < > method of adding and deleting links... yikes. drag and drop? right-click? something else...
When a device in the controllers / responders sections is "ID NOT FOUND", it should have the right-click option to "add"
Overall look & feel of Links section is great if you have 3-5 devices... but becomes a scrolling nightmare with 50+
Needs a left pane for devices instead of a center-pane.
A method to make a given device invisible in all controller/responder windows. I have every device - and every button of every KeypadLinc - linked to one PLC now; they'll be linked to three PLCs eventually. I don't want to see eighteen PLC links on every KeypadLinc I look at. I'd like to have a "don't display links" option on a per-device basis.
Huh... just noticed the "< > Remove Resp" at the bottom... man, that's a weird way to do it.
Should the "button number" for the load of any device be "1"? as in HouseLinc? similar to the Group number?
Default on level and ramp: can PH learn these from the device then use them as they are currently learned when sending a standard "on"?
PLC Groups:
How do I assign them to a button? I create a group name... and... uh...
How do I assign devices and their functions to the group number I create in PH?
KPL Config:
Why doesn't the KPL show up?
Reports:
Why are all the "good" things expressed in red?
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dhoward
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| Posted: October 28 2006 at 21:46 | IP Logged
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Gregory,
Saw the post on Cocoontech and will be posting there shortly. No explaining necessary and I took your post as intended  . Appreciate you taking the time to look at the software and provide your thoughts.
Anyways, check out the newest version 1.03.4.9. Ive addressed some of the issues you raise (such as the "red" color  ) and hope to evaluate the others that I didnt get a chance to implement.
The KPL issue is because in the "Types" tab, your KPL devices do not have a check in the "KeypadLinc" column. Since you're having this problem, this would indicate that you upgraded from 1.03.4.7. There was a bug in the upgrade process which did not "check" this box appropriately.
The PLC Groups allows you to assign an ID to a PLC group number. When creating links with the PLC as a controller, you still have to use the numeric counterpart. The ID may be used in macros and formulas or Device Control strings. A planned enhancement is to have PLC groups appear on the Device Status screen (only individual devices appear currently).
Check out the new version and continue to give me your thoughts. I know not everything has been addressed but I did include some of your suggestions and it should make your testing easier. This version now has both spidering and PLC device discovery.
Thanks,
Dave.
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gregoryx
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| Posted: October 28 2006 at 23:54 | IP Logged
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Very cool! 
Okay... where's spidering and PLC ID discovery? I poked around... looked in the docs... which confirm that it's in there but not how to do it. 
Great stuff! Thanks!
Looks like the one KPL in there now knows it's a KPL. Excellent!
I'm still more'n a bit confused on the groups. Again, the docs don't seem to help me... FWIW.
I added devices to the PLC as "responders" and see the "groups" field and entered the same number (200) in both the devices I added (for testing).
How would I go about linking that PLC's group 200 to a KPL button, for example? I presume that's the idea of how it works, right? The "groups" on a PLC are addressed the same as "button 2-8" or "group 2-8" of an 8-button KPL, right? I presume that if I could tell a KPL button to activate PLC device ID xx.xx.xx group 200 to go "on" it'd then turn around and do what I asked it to do. Yes?
Now how?
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gregoryx
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| Posted: October 29 2006 at 00:39 | IP Logged
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Hmmm... found the "Allow Link Spidering" but it doesn't seem to stay enabled even after a "Save PLC Settings".
I found the "Create" thing for controllers and responders! It seems I need to close the Insteon Explorer and reopen it to see the devices... still, cool. 
Next bummer is that I need to go to the "Device Status" window to toggle the device thus figuring out which is which. Alternatively, I can look up the ID in HouseLinc or my documentation, but it'd be nice to have it somewhere in the Insteon Explorer.
Looking good!
Groups... gotta figure out groups now. 
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gregoryx
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| Posted: October 29 2006 at 00:43 | IP Logged
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Seems like the "Pending Operations" and "Completed Operations" windows don't have anything in them any more...
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gregoryx
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| Posted: October 29 2006 at 00:52 | IP Logged
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Ah... refresh.
Seems like spider-discovered devices do not get the tables / databases of the switches read. I can't seem to force them to, either. Can't really "spider" that way.
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dhoward
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| Posted: October 29 2006 at 16:14 | IP Logged
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Gregory,
WOW, you've been busy! Anyways, appreciate the feedback, just hope I can answer everything for you. I'll try to tackle it in the order you posted all within this post.
I think you've already found it but I'll iterate for others following the thread. Link Spidering is a checkbox at the top of the Insteon Explorer labeled "Allow Link Spidering". I'll explain how it works a little further down. To have PowerHome discover devices already contained within the PLC, there is a button labeled "Create" on the "Setup" tab with a description of "Create PowerHome Insteon Devices from PLC ID's. I'll defer the explanation until later with the spidering since they're related.
Yep, the KPL's showing up should now be fixed.
Linking or group creation. I think I understand what you're saying, but I can take it a couple of different ways. The proper method of creation I'll explain first. In the "Links" tab, the device you wish to create either responders or controllers for should be selected and highlighted in the middle window labeled "Devices". When you highlight a row in this window, the upper window will show devices that control it or "Controllers" and the bottom window will show devices that it controls or "Responders". To add devices to a PLC's group 200 (the PLC will "Control" these devices so the devices are "Responders"), highlight the responder devices in the far right hand window (vertical window) by clicking on each device you wish to add. You can highlight multiple devices by clicking while holding either the Ctrl or Shift keys. With the devices you wish to add as responders highlighted, press the left facing arrow at the bottom of the far right window to copy the devices to the "Responders" window. The devices will appear in the "Responders" window with as much information automatically filled in for you. Fields with a background of red need attention (the Link Status fields will say "PENDING SAVE" and will not change from red until you "Save"). In the case of the PLC group 200, you'll want to type 200 in the Group column for all devices you wish to respond to PLC group 200. After doing that, you could hit the left facing arrow again and "Add" the highlighted devices a second time and then set the group to 201 or similar to create a second group. You could also "crosslink" these same devices by pressing the left facing arrow at the top of the far right window to copy the devices to the "Controllers" window. One other thing to note, if any of the devices that were added as responders were KPL's, then you also have to fill in the "Button" column and let PowerHome know what KPL button is responding to commands from PLC group 200. Anyways, once you've got the controller and responder devices setup properly with no red columns (other than the Link Status columns), click the "Save" text to save the changes. You'll see the "PENDING SAVE" change to "FLAGGED CREATE" and should shortly see the CREATE LINK operations show in the "Pending Operations" window. If they don't, make sure that the device isnt "Failed" due to communcation errors or not flagged "Active" (both of which can be seen and fixed in "Device Maint"). You can click the "Refresh" text to refresh ALL the windows on this tab or just double-click the selected device in the "Devices" window to refresh the "Controllers" and "Responders".
Now comes the tricky part. It almost sounds as if you're asking how a KPL can "trigger" the PLC to send commands to it's group 200. If this is the case, then it cant be done. The Insteon protocol does not allow for this type control even though Ive requested it. You can do it through PowerHome with a trigger, but this requires that PowerHome is always running, etc. Now the other way I could take your query, is that you're asking how can I control the same items in PLC group 200 in a button on a KPL. That is easy and is nothing more than creating links to the same devices as in PLC group 200 to a KPL group. You can do it a couple of different ways. You can leave the devices you highlighted in the far right window still highlighted and change to the KPL device in the "Devices" window and just add them like you did with the PLC or after you've saved the changes you made to the PLC, just highlight ALL the responder links you want to move (you can highlight ALL links in the controllers or responder windows by clicking on a column header or anywhere within the window that is not specifically a line) or if you had a lot of groups and just wanted group 200, then click on the first record in group 200, scroll to the last record, hold the shift key, and click the last record in group 200. This should highlight all rows between the two rows you clicked. Make sure that no other controller or responder rows are clicked and click the "Copy" text. This will copy all selected rows into a temporary buffer. Change the "Devices" selected device to the KPL you wish to copy to and then press the "Paste" text. The rows will then be copied over with as much info as possible intact (level, ramprate, etc). You'll of course have to enter a new group since 200 isnt valid for a KPL.
I checked the "Allow Link Spidering" data saving and couldnt find a problem. In every test I performed (and reviewing the code), the selection "sticks". Give me some more details on the steps to follow so I can reproduce and I'll get it fixed.
The problem with having to go to the "Device Status" screen to actively control devices is known  . I will be adding another tab to the Insteon Explorer with methods to directly control Insteon devices. I will also add functionality to make it easier to identify the unknown items discovered through spidering or PLC ID scanning by giving an option to have the light "flash" at 1 second intervals. This will be coming.
No need to close and reopen, just use the "Save/Refresh" buttons. Im looking at how I can automate this in the future. What I'll end up doing is if no changes have been made to the data and a "Refresh" can be accomplished without causing you to lose work you're in the middle of, I'll just have the window auto-refresh. If changes have been made and a refresh would lose work in process, I'll have an indicator at the top of the window signaling that the database has changed and more recent data is available if you refresh.
"Pending Operations" will be blank depending upon the settings you've chosen at the top of the screen of if your devices are not flagged "Active" or have been flagged as having a communications "Failure". Check the "Device Maint" tab (you should probably hit "Save/Refresh" for the most recent data).
Not really sure what is going on with the last question concerning spider-discovered devices. I'll explain how it works in PowerHome and you'll have to let me know if it's just my implementation or still a problem.
When using "Allow Link Spidering" and "Create Devices from PLC ID's", PowerHome must first verify the "existance" of the device. What happens is when PowerHome "discovers" a new address not currently in it's device database (either through scanning an existing known device's database or reading addresses from the PLC), it queues up a "Ping" command to the address in question. At this point, no new PowerHome device has been created yet. PowerHome has discovered an address, verified that it's not in the current database, and sends a "Ping" command to the address. If the devices responds to the "Ping" command, PowerHome will then add the device to it's Insteon Device database with an ID in the form of NEW SPIDER??. The Ping command verifies the existance of the device AND tells PowerHome what the type of Insteon device it is. PowerHome MUST have a valid Insteon device type in order to create a device in the database. If the device does not respond to the "Ping" command, then no device will be created. So the flow of operation is: PowerHome reads an address from an existing devices link database or from the PLC. PowerHome checks to see if this address is known or not. If it is known, then nothing happens. If it isnt already known, PowerHome queues up a "Ping" command. The "Ping" command will be sent at the first available opportunity (this is not immediate. If PowerHome is in the middle of downloading ID's from the PLC or in the middle of scanning a remote device's database, the "Ping" command will wait until the PLC is "clear"). The "Ping" command is sent and PowerHome listens for a response. If a response is received (the response contains the Insteon device type), then PowerHome will add the device to it's database with an ID of NEW SPIDER??. At this point, the new device should be flagged to have it's link database scanned. This may not happen for a little bit as link scanning is a background operation and other actions may take precedence.
The last thing to note on the "Spidering" is that PowerHome ONLY spiders during link scanning. If you enter a new device into PowerHome and "Allow Link Spidering" is not enabled, PowerHome will scan that devices links database and ignore any addresses that are not currently in the PowerHome database. If you decide at a later time that you want to "Spider" unknown addresses for that device, you not only have to enable "Allow Link Spidering" but you must also tell PowerHome that you want to rescan that device's link database. You can flag a device for link scanning by going to the "Device Maint" tab and checking the "Scan DB" box for the particular device. There is another way as well. You can also go to the "Links" tab and highlight any controller or responder devices with an ID of "[ID NOT FOUND]" and then click the appropriate "Create" text for either controllers or responders. PowerHome will then use the same technique outlined above to try and Ping and enter the devices into the PowerHome database. If a device had alot of links with "[ID NOT FOUND]", it would probably just be easier to "Allow Link Spidering" and flag the device as "Scan DB". Keep in mind that when using the "Create" text on the "Links" tab, that "Allow Link Spidering" does NOT have to be enabled.
Whew! Hope this helps a little. If you're interested, I can also give you a call and help you work through any issues you may be having and things that I havent been clear on. Let me know and Im interested in hearing your thoughts on what I can put in the Help or documentation to make things simpler for the user.
Thanks,
Dave.
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Dean
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| Posted: October 30 2006 at 23:03 | IP Logged
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gregoryx wrote:
| Hmmm... found the "Allow Link Spidering" but it doesn't seem to stay enabled even after a "Save PLC Settings". |
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I've noticed this too. It seems like the "Allow Link Spidering" check disappears after you reinitialize PowerHome, but I do believe I have seen it disappear without reinitializing PowerHome.
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dhoward
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| Posted: October 31 2006 at 09:55 | IP Logged
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Dean,
Since you're also having problems with the "FLAGGED CREATE", you may want to email me your database so I can try to determine whats wrong. This shouldnt be happening and I cant reproduce here and this is definately something I want to get fixed.
Thanks,
Dave.
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Topic: Recent release Insteon musings
