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spou
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| Posted: December 13 2010 at 10:21 | IP Logged
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Hi everyone.
Far from wanting to start a flame war of any sort, I, like many of you, have grown beyond X10 for various reasons, in my case, mainly because I can not get feedback from the remote devices.
So, the question arise, what's next?
I have seen many various devices and protocols come and go in the last 10 years. For now, as they seems to be the only supported my PH, Insteon and UPB are the contenders.
So the question comes: is there an advantage of one over the other? Pros and cons? Thoughts, feelings?
I repeat that I do not want any flame war. Each of you that went one of those roads must have a few good reasons. What are they?
Thanks in advance for any input you can provide,
Spou
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nadler
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| Posted: December 13 2010 at 11:34 | IP Logged
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This morning I called Smarthome to replace an Insteon
switchlinc which I bought in 2006 and which just
developed a paddle problem They immediately emailed me a
free return shipping label and are replacing the switch
for free.
I have over 50 insteon devices including 2 thermostats
and everything works great with PH. While in the earlier
years of Insteon there were switch issues, for the last
couple of years everything I have has worked reliably and
without issue.
I switched from x10 which I was never happy with. I
believe there is a marked difference between the 2.
I originally chose Insteon over UPB because of cost. Now
altho UPB is still more expensive, I don't think there is
a big difference.
You might try coccoon.com for other views. There is a
lot of talk there about UPB and ZWave and a lot of
Insteon haters.
Let us know what you chose.
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Mitch
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| Posted: December 13 2010 at 13:42 | IP Logged
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I would second that sentiment. I briefly tried UPB but found the technology to have slower response times than Insteon. I was very interested in having fast responses for courtesy lights controlled by hard-wired motion sensors. I get very reliable/fast lights with Insteon and programming with a JDS Stargate. I returned my UPB stuff to Smarthome for a full refund.
I have also had good luck with returning Insteon switches for full refunds. I had a few bummer switches early on that they swapped out no problem at all. In the past two years I have had no issues with the hardware.
A lot of the whining on cocoon tech is from people who had bad experiences with early releases of Insteon. There also seems to be quite a few people on that forum who install automation systems for a living so they are focused on technologies that depend on installation and maintenance by 'experts.' Insteon technology is accessible to even the most tech-challenged neophytes - if you can replace a light switch you can set up some pretty sophisticated scenes using just paddles and keypad buttons - no controller required. At the same time it also allows much more sophisticated programing with controllers and flexibility with link editing.
No technology is perfect, but Smarthome has a strong track record of supporting their products through upgrades and replacements.
Good luck with your decision!
Mitch
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Gadgets
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| Posted: December 13 2010 at 15:52 | IP Logged
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I can't believe it. Was just logging on here to more or less ask that exact same question. I'm looking for a little more information though.
My CM11a seems to have finally died after about 12 years of reliable operation. So I need to replace it. Problem is, I also have signal problems in the house I am now in. SO, I am looking for help and guidance on not only which product is best to switch to, but also signal issues.
I'm liking what I have read on the net about Insteon, and certainly trust the guys here at PH. I don't want to switch everything from X10 just yet, because Insteon is so much more expensive, I would basically like to get the Insteon controller to use with my X10 devices for now, then start swapping things out. I'm also looking at phase coupling issues and signal boosters if needed. So what is everyone's 5cents worth on these items.
- Insteon.. which controller?
- Phase Coupler.. does the Insteon phase coupling access points work well?
- If I find it needed, what is a good option for boosting the x10 signal?
- Anything else I should know?
Thanks Guys!
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Mitch
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| Posted: December 13 2010 at 17:37 | IP Logged
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Some thoughts:
1. Signal issues - I converted from X10 to Insteon in stages. You will see some X10 signal loss as you add Insteon devices - they repeat Insteon signals but they suck X10. On the other hand, I have had a few X10 receptacles in service with 60+ Insteon devices for the last two years with no problems. I suggest you not bother with the wireless phase coupler that (dual access points) that Smarthome offers, but commit to scattering dual band devices throughout your installation.
2. Converting from X10 to Insteon is pretty painless because you can set up your new switchlincs as X10 until you are ready to commit to Insteon. I was also able to sell my old keypads and paddles on eBay, which really helped with the cost. You can get a lot of Insteon stuff at Amazon now with free shipping.
3. Phase coupler - I strongly recommend the 2406H hard-wired phase coupler for your Insteon installation. It saved me from enormous signal problems that I experienced early on in the conversion. My wireless access point coupling just never seemed to work.
4. Controllers - it depends on what you want to do. For me, I need digital and analogue inputs, relay outputs, web access, and a flexible programming language. PH is the best computer-based controller I have come across - no competition comes close for the flexibility of control (Insteon, X10, UPB, etc.) and ease of programing. You can add all the inputs and outputs I mention if you do not mind a lot of Insteon plug-in modules hanging off your wall. If you want a more permanent installation with a free-standing controller (does not depend on a computer), the options become more limited and more expensive. The ISY controllers seem to have the most programming flexibility, but do not allow direct in/outputs from non-powerline devices. I have heard Elk has a controller, but do not know much about it other than it is very expensive. My pref is for the JDS controller for flexibility of inputs and outputs, but it does not have Insteon control built in (only X10 and UPB). That problem will be solved when they release their Homerunner RBI later this month - it is a free standing Insteon controller that can run automation programs on its own, or can be interfaced with their commstar (new version of the Stargate) through the webx module if you need the non-PL input/output stuff.
5. Links. If you are going to do Insteon at a serious level you will need to learn about how links work. I prefer to edit links in devices and controllers directly using Simplehomenet's free utility software connected to a PLM. You can read/write links directly and create backup files of the link data for each device. Backup files can be edited and uploaded for re-writing to the device. Once you understand links you can manually create scenes, program keypad buttons, and everything else Insteon is capable of. There's probably some good sources for link basics and tutorials out there, but someone else will need to fill you in on that.
Hope that helps.
Mitch
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BeachBum
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| Posted: December 13 2010 at 17:46 | IP Logged
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If your X10 system was working then with a serial PLM you should see the same results. There is talk that the PLM does not put out as much X10 signal strength but I have not had that issue. There also is concerns with the greater number of Insteon devices installed the X10 signal is diminished. Again I have not had that problem. I have 44 devices of which 10 are still X10 and some of those X10s have multiple devices with the same address so the total number is around 7 more x10s. Phase coupling will work as before but for X10 only. With Insteon that is accomplished with Access Points. Boosting X10 signals is a hit and a miss. If you have a noise issue than you will be boosting the noise also. My x10 devices that will not work because of noise are fixed by installing Leviton. The same circuit also fails with Insteon.
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Gadgets
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| Posted: December 14 2010 at 15:41 | IP Logged
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Mitch,
Thanks so much for the informative post. I am pretty much only looking at Insteon at the moment, partly because PH works well with it, and the people on this forum are of great help.
I am not a programmer, so always struggle with these fancy scripts and things some of these people whip up, but with help I get through.
I don't go crazy with automation, although I'm not saying I won't eventually. I'm just needing to get my system back working they way I used to have it.... reliable. I put a scope on my AC lines a while back to look for noise, there didn't seem to be much of anything, but considering how many computers are in our house, there HAS to be.
I was reading about the network version of the controller from Insteon, but not sure if PH supports that one.
Question about your one statement about setting the switchlincs to X10.. can they not do X10 and Insteon at the same time?
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Gadgets
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| Posted: December 14 2010 at 15:47 | IP Logged
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BeachBum wrote:
| If your X10 system was working then with a serial PLM you should see the same results. There is talk that the PLM does not put out as much X10 signal strength but I have not had that issue. There also is concerns with the greater number of Insteon devices installed the X10 signal is diminished. Again I have not had that problem. I have 44 devices of which 10 are still X10 and some of those X10s have multiple devices with the same address so the total number is around 7 more x10s. Phase coupling will work as before but for X10 only. With Insteon that is accomplished with Access Points. Boosting X10 signals is a hit and a miss. If you have a noise issue than you will be boosting the noise also. My x10 devices that will not work because of noise are fixed by installing Leviton. The same circuit also fails with Insteon. |
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Hi Pete,
By installing Leviton, do you mean a Leviton noise filter, or using a leviton device in that location. I have a circuit that I am unable to get a signal to no matter what so far, so I kind of gave up on it.
As for controller, it doesn't matter to me if it is Serial, USB, or Ethernet, which ever one will work the best is what I'm looking for. Leaving the PC running is a non-issue as well, as it also serves as our media server so is on 24/7 already.
As always, thanks for your input!
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BeachBum
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| Posted: December 14 2010 at 16:08 | IP Logged
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You want the Serial PLM. The USB has too many issues. The Leviton dimmer is the HCM06. Works great without any misses whereas X10 and Insteon were solid failures. The dimmer filters the noise out.
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Mitch
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| Posted: December 14 2010 at 18:25 | IP Logged
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I have a few filterlincs on my AV equipment, computers, and an old freezer to keep the signal noise down. The Insteon switches can be programed to do both X10 and Insteon.
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Gadgets
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| Posted: December 16 2010 at 11:06 | IP Logged
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Ok then, sounds like I know what I need to get started now. Thanks guys.
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GadgetGuy
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| Posted: December 18 2010 at 09:28 | IP Logged
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For years (since the 1980's), I used X10 devices to increasingly automate my home.
About three years ago I switched to Insteon, as I was having reliability problems with X10 in our large footprint home.
As pointed out above, the addition of Insteon started to affect the X10 device reliability, so I began converting to Insteon in earnest.
I now have over 50 Insteon devices installed and am DELIGHTED with the reliability and performance. Truly the more you add the better it gets with the Insteon mesh-network approach to wired and wireless communications. We have a large farm and I even have Insteon lighting control in many of my out buildings, a hundred feet away from the house, and they work 100% of the time. It has made it easy to now turn on/off barn lights from the house.
Long story short. I just can't imagine a better approach than Insteon. It seems to work, and work well. In addition there is a wealth of available devices both from SmartHome and SimpleHomeNet (for control of sprinklers, garage doors, alarms, etc).
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Gadgets
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| Posted: December 20 2010 at 11:37 | IP Logged
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Hey GG,
Thanks for the input. I am more and more liking the sound of Insteon. I'm already finding items I wished we available for x10. Thankfully my system is very small compared to yours. But with some of these other devices that may change over time. This ZigBee stuff, it all works with and just like the Smarthome Insteon products?
Brian
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GadgetGuy
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| Posted: December 20 2010 at 12:44 | IP Logged
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Gadgets wrote:
This ZigBee stuff, it all works with and just like the Smarthome Insteon products?
Brian |
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Brian, I have no experience with the ZigBee units, so I can't comment with any knowledge. I can only reinforce what I think is the outstanding feature of Insteon and that is the dual communications methodologies, using BOTH power line and wireless signaling. Typically neither approach is 100% reliable, but the two together seem to punch thru just about almost any problems.
I also note (probably because the signaling is so solid) that the Insteon devices seem to respond to on/off commands from linked switches considerable faster than my X10 devices did. The Insteon seem as fast as if they were wired!
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jeffw_00
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| Posted: December 22 2010 at 09:59 | IP Logged
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INSTEON + Serial PLM + Powerhome is pretty much an ultimate solution. With some thoughtful coding, you can get 100% reliability - which I define as 100% chance that either the module changes state as requested, OR you get an Email telling you about the failure. No mysteries. I've had my system working this way for a few years. Each Insteon attempt is backed up by a couple of delayed retries, and if they all fail, I get an Email (happens maybe once every 3-4 months, usually indicates a dying module), and if a few fail in a row, the communication to the PLM is probably wedged (happens maybe once a year) and PH reboots my PC to clear the problem.
I don't think the perfect Home Automation system exists, but this is about as close as you can get.
final note: a USB PLM is a serial PLM with an internal Serial/USB converter, so get the serial PLM, and if you have to use USB, use your own converter.
/j
Edited by jeffw_00 - December 22 2010 at 09:59
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Topic: from X10 to what?
