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MrGibbage
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| Posted: December 01 2010 at 08:04 | IP Logged
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How should I troubleshoot this? My dining room light comes on all by itself. Today I saw it with my own eyes. I know there
was other insteon traffic happening at the exact same time, and I have the log to prove it. My wife has said that sometimes
when she comes home, that light is on, but she doesn't see it come on. It is not a part of my "welcome home" group, so I know
I'm not turning it on. Anyway, here is the log from this morning:
06:18:14 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[14.1C.7C] To Address:[00.00.01] Flags:[203]
Cmd1:[19] Cmd2:[1]. Decode: Group Broadcast. From: MSTRBATH_MOTION Group: 1, Off
06:18:06 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[06.E7.E1] To Address:[14.85.10] Flags:[65]
Cmd1:[17] Cmd2:[1]. Decode: Group Cleanup. From: FORMDINROOM To: PLMCTLR1 Group: 1, On
06:18:06 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[14.18.32] To Address:[14.85.10] Flags:[65] Cmd1:
[19] Cmd2:[1]. Decode: Group Cleanup. From: SARAH_BDRM_MOTION To: PLMCTLR1 Group: 1, Off
06:18:06 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[14.18.32] To Address:[00.00.01] Flags:[203]
Cmd1:[19] Cmd2:[1]. Decode: Group Broadcast. From: SARAH_BDRM_MOTION Group: 1, Off
06:18:05 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[14.18.32] To Address:[00.00.01] Flags:[203]
Cmd1:[19] Cmd2:[1]. Decode: Group Broadcast. From: SARAH_BDRM_MOTION Group: 1, Off
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BeachBum
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| Posted: December 01 2010 at 08:26 | IP Logged
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Just a wild guess but it sounds like FORMDINROOM has a link to someone. I would unlink anything linked to FORMDINROOM. You might reset FORMDINROOM and see if that gets rid of the link.
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grif091
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| Posted: December 01 2010 at 10:07 | IP Logged
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There is a user on the ISY forum that is having a similar problem. A SwitchLinc (I think) is sending a Group 1 On as if someone pressed the On paddle. In your case the initial Group Broadcast message that should have been generated from a paddle press is missing. The Group Cleanup in the trace is the second message that is sent by an Insteon device when a paddle/button press occurs.
What does that mean, I don't know for sure. May be an indication the tact switch is making a connection when not physically pressed. Perhaps some firmware problem that is generating a Group message by mistake. Only thing I know to do is replace the switch or swap it with some other location to see if problem follows the switch.
What is the type of switch and what is the firmware level?
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: December 01 2010 at 20:22 | IP Logged
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Is there an easy way to get the firmware version? Without having to yank the switch out?
I don't think it is a hard ware issue, like the switch contacts momentarily touching. I
actually think it is related to my PLM. I just installed this new PLM a couple of weeks
ago, and that's when the light started misbehaving. If you look at the log excerpt in the
OP, you can see that there was PLM traffic at the same time. Could the PLM be sending out
something that the dining room switch is interpreting as an ON command? As for swapping out
the switch, I could do that.
Of course, since the problem is very random and intermittent, it is hard to track down.
I checked the links for the switch and there was nothing remarkable there.
By the way, the diningroom switch is a 2476D. I have had that one installed for about two
years maybe???
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grif091
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| Posted: December 01 2010 at 20:38 | IP Logged
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Skip,
Don't bother taking the cover off. It is the firmware level that is in question and that can be found in the Firmware column of the Devices tab.
I don't think it is a PLM issue. The PLM could be generating a false message. I have seen the old PLC do this. However, that would not explain the switch itself turning On. For the PLM to be causing this a command would have to be sent by the PLM to the switch. There are several commands that do that, obviously, but none that have been defined that would turn the switch On as a Responder and then turn the switch into a Controller and have the switch send a Group Cleanup message in response. Also the Group Broadcast message is missing.
A single trace can be misleading. The next failure may show a different set of circumstances that point in a different direction. At this point it looks like switch to me.
The user on the UDI forum, it is very intermittent and he is replacing the switch. It is so intermittent that he has no event trace. Because the ISY device is standalone it would require a PC 24/7 to take a trace over an extended period of time.
Lee
Edited by grif091 - December 01 2010 at 20:41
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: December 01 2010 at 20:42 | IP Logged
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The firmware version is 39.
I see your point, and it certainly could be a coincidence
that there was PLM traffic at the same time. I'll keep my
eye on it for a little while, but I'll start warming up one
of my spares too.
Thanks, Lee.
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Mitch
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| Posted: December 12 2010 at 17:13 | IP Logged
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My installation has been plagued by similar problems for some time now. For a few years I had a Simplehomenet easybridge with a PLM as well as the PLM connected to my JDS stargate controller. We had a number of instances when most of the switchlincs would come on all at once. I had thought it was something to do with the stargate PLM because most of the victims were in group one on that device - I did not have any 'all group 1 on' programming, but I do use 'all group 1 off' It was also similar because it happened most often when the house was switching to 'at home' mode, so lots of Insteon traffic. Three months ago I ditched my ezbridge and replaced those functions with PH and updated to a USB dual band PLM - since then I have not seen this 'all group 1 on' behavior.
But now I still see random devices coming on - more often relays that control fans, but sometimes dimmers. Last night the fan in the laundry room came on when there was not much insteon traffic. It seems to happen about once a week and it is not always the same device. I thought when I changed from a 100% X10 installation to 100% Insteon all of those gremlins would go away - no such luck.
Mitch
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grif091
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| Posted: December 15 2010 at 11:37 | IP Logged
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A similar problem of a device message indicating a paddle On press has occurred for a switch that was not pressed. In both cases the erroneous switch message immediately follows a motion sensor motion Group message sequence. In your post it is a motion Off. On the UDI forum it is a motion On.
Can you provide the following ...
motion sensor version
SwitchLinc Dimmer firmware rev 39 - confirm correct
PLM type and firmware revision
I'm trying to find some common aspects of both configurations.
Thanks
Lee
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 05 2011 at 10:18 | IP Logged
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Wow, this problem is not going away. In fact, I have now seen my family room lights come on, and last night the hall light outside
my bedroom came on. I have the log capture from last night:
04:34:21 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[14.1B.DC] To Address:[00.00.01] Flags:[203] Cmd1:[17]
Cmd2:[1]. Decode: Group Broadcast. From: MSTRBEDRM_MOTION Group: 1, On
04:34:21 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[14.1B.DC] To Address:[00.00.01] Flags:[203] Cmd1:[17]
Cmd2:[1]. Decode: Group Broadcast. From: MSTRBEDRM_MOTION Group: 1, On
04:34:22 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[0A.54.C0] To Address:[14.85.10] Flags:[65] Cmd1:
[17] Cmd2:[1]. Decode: Group Cleanup. From: FR_STAIRS_LOAD To: PLMCTLR1 Group: 1, On
One thing I see in common here is the insteon motions detecting motion right when the lights come on. The motions absolutely are not
linked to anything other than the PLM. It doesn't happen often enough for me to set up some experiments to find out what is causing
this (maybe once or twice a week??). I was thinking about unplugging the PLM for a few days (boy, will that suck), but even that
won't prove that it is a PLM problem. I guess if I left it unplugged for like, two weeks and never saw the lights come on by
themselves, and then plug the PLM back in and see how long before I see any strangeness. But just because I didn't see it happen
during the two-week test doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that it wouldn't happen on day 15. This is a lousy way to troubleshoot :(
Any other ideas???
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BeachBum
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| Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:12 | IP Logged
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You might try a clear then add full and see if that helps.
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:13 | IP Logged
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Pete, are you talking about the PLM?
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BeachBum
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| Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:16 | IP Logged
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That would be the one. Lee and I discovered you’re better off doing an add full instead of min with the PLM.
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:20 | IP Logged
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OK, I'll try that tonight when I get home.
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grif091
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| Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:50 | IP Logged
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Rebuilding the PLM is a good idea and it only takes a few seconds.
The first failure was for
Address:[14.18.32] - SwitchLinc v39
Is this new device also a SwitchLinc at the same revision
Address:[0A.54.C0] - ??
Even if the motion sensor was linked to both devices it would not explain the messages. In both cases the message is one that is generated by a device when the paddle is pressed (Group Cleanup Direct. Group 1 On, Flag=65). I realize the paddle was not pressed but the device does turn On and there is a message on the powerline that indicates the device turned On.
In both cases a motion sensor message sequence precedes the SwitchLinc (in one case, other unknown at this point) turning On and a powerline message being issued from what appears to be the SwitchLinc that turned On. Since there is no known command the motion sensor can issue to cause this, yet in both cases the motion sensor messages precede the failure, I would conclude the SwitchLinc reacted to a message sequence on the powerline it should not have. I would replace the SwitchLinc with a NEW SwitchLinc. One that has the latest firmware, not just a new SwitchLinc out of the box with the same firmware.
Edited by grif091 - January 05 2011 at 12:53
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 06 2011 at 08:14 | IP Logged
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I did factory reset my PLM and added full last night. I hope it helps.
I have seen at least three lights in my house come on by themselves. I have log captures
for two of them, and they are posted here. I really hope that I don't have to replace a
bunch of switches in my house. I have insteon switches installed for almost every switch
in my house--some of them have been installed for several years. I haven't checked the
revisions on all of them yet, but I fear that I have several different revisions. I
really, REALLY don't want to replace a bunch of switches just because of this, but I don't
think the lights turning on is something I can live with, so I may end up going this route.
How sad... I wonder if SmartHome would hook me up and let me exchange them.
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 06 2011 at 08:24 | IP Logged
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I keep forgetting that I have a VNC server running on my PowerHome PC. I just checked the firmwares.
The FORMDINROOM has FW 39
The FR_STAIRS_LOAD is blank in the firmware column (is that a problem?)
The other lights that I have seen come on also have FW 39.
My motions all have FW 52.
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grif091
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The recommendation to replace a switch with the latest firmware is diagnostic. Based on the trace the paddle is being pressed on the switch. That is the only known mechanism that can cause the switch to generate a Group Cleanup Direct message and also turn On. Since the paddle is not being pressed I am looking for a Zebra. The switch firmware reacting to the multiple Group Broadcast messages being issued by a motion sensor is the only guess I can come up with.
With motion sensor Group Broadcast messages being in both of your traces and the one on the other platform that cannot be a coincidence. Somehow the motion sensor sequence triggers the result. I rule out the motion sensor as there is no known command the MS can issue to generate the result seen. The PLM generating a false message is more logical but it would not explain the switch turning On.
I am wide open to anyone else suggestions of what to do next.
Lee
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BeachBum
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| Posted: January 06 2011 at 11:09 | IP Logged
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Do you have any other type controllers in your house connected to the power line? For instance I run 2 systems, one with a PLC and the other with a PLM. In my case they can both talk to the Insteon devices. Understand this is for testing only but the results are interresting.
My only other thought would be to reset all devices to factory since this appears to be an incoming rather than a PH generated occurrence.
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GadgetGuy
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| Posted: January 06 2011 at 13:58 | IP Logged
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I have been experiencing the same type of (light comes on by itself) problem, and it does indeed drive one crazy.
It is highly random and can happen twice in a day or once a month without any apparent rhyme or reason.
I have always thought it was an Insteon device interpreting garbled communication traffic and inappropriately acting on a command intended for another device, or misconstruing a command intended for itself.
After a year of trying many things, I have yet to solve the mystery or find a cure for it.
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 06 2011 at 16:00 | IP Logged
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Ken, what kinds of things have you tried? Do you have any
insteon motion detectors? Have you seen anything in your
logs that may be of help? Do you have a PLC or PLM? How
old are the switches for the lights for which you have
noticed this problem?
But yes, I agree that you might see it happen twice in one
day, or it might happen once a month. Very aggravating.
I wonder if we should gang up on SmartHome and see if they
know anything about this.
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Topic: Light comes on all by itself?
