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Handman
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 19:31 | IP Logged
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Ever since I replaced my failed PLC (2414U) with the PLM I have had problems (never mind that the "receiver" sensitivity is lower). Every few days the PLM will show "clear failed" in the device tab of Insteon Explorer (i.e., it's redded out). Another issue I have consistently is that the outgoing signals seem to be incorrectly executed. For example, a macro will execute to turn on three lights, and then two of the three will turn on, but the third won't . . . but another light will turn on! I verified the addresses and seem able to manually (with PH) to turn on/off all the lights, but when certain macros do it, the wrong lights seem to operate! I am not sure, but does the PLM use extended insteon commands and could this have anything to do with it. Waaay frustrating. Does anyone get the feeling that my PLM is not 100% (Yes, I have reloaded the database (full load)). I really don't understand all the columns in the device tab, but maybe someone else will find this helpful in resolving the issue: Firmware -(none listed); IEngine - Legacy; Comm Count - 210; ACK Count -3; NAK count - 3; Event 03 Count - 477; Failed Matches - 7. (Comm Reliability - 50%) The unit is a SH Powerlinc Serial Modem 2412S.
Edited by Handman - April 21 2009 at 19:33
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grif091
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 20:50 | IP Logged
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There is little doubt some communication problem exists with a 50% reliability. The PLM spec does indicate a lower sensitivity but if that difference is making a difference, for sure you have a powerline issue. You could have a bad PLM but I would put that at the bottom of the probability list. First, do you have a FilterLinc isolating the PC/UPS from the powerline? That would be my first place to look. You can test this area by plugging the PLM into a good 3 wire extension cord and plugging the extension cord into a circuit far from where the PC/UPS is getting power. Next on my list would be one or more applicances/devices away from the PC/UPS that are introducing noise or attenuating Insteon signals. Unplug (not just turn off) major appliances, TVs, battery charges, etc to see if the comm. reliability improves. Of equal importance is the coupling of the two 120V power lines. Be sure the Access Points are actually plugged into opposite 120V legs.
Each Insteon message has a CRC character appended to the end of the message by the Insteon sender hardware and verified by the Insteon receiver hardware. Noise can prevent a message from being recognized but very unlikely a message would activate the wrong device. The macro example you mentioned in your post, is this macro issuing individual Direct commands to each device or are those three devices being controlled as a Group. Insteon hardware will abort a Group sequence if it detects another Group message sequence on the powerline such as if someone presses an Insteon switch, or a motion sensor fires, etc while a Group command sequence is in progress.
An event trace would help identify what Insteon traffic was going on when the wrong pattern of lights responds.
You will rarely get 100% Insteon reliability using a powerline but 50% reliability indicates a significant problem.
Oops, almost forgot the ED question. The PLM does support ED messages but I don’t think PowerHome is using them at this point. Certainly not for device on/off control. The Insteon message trace will show if ED messages are being used as they are much longer than normal SD messages.
Edited by grif091 - April 21 2009 at 20:55
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Lee G
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Handman
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 21:32 | IP Logged
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I used to never have any filtering anywhere in my house because Insteon was supposed to restransmit everything, and for the most part it worked pretty well. I did add X-10 motion sensors and recently added X10 filters to the PCs, but not everything because I also have a WGL572 X-10 receiver which retransmits all wireless x-10 signals over the powerlines (does an outstanding job). I understand when the PLM can communicate with individual devices and those get "redded out" (clear failed), but I cannot understand why the PLM itself would get redded out. What causes this? Serial commuication issues from PC to PLM?
As for the other potential comm issues: both phases are tied with a hard-wired device; I have 4 access points and two are most definitely on different phases. I have a mid-sized house (2000 sq ft) that should do fine with just 2 access points. Nothing has changed except the PLC was replaced with a PLM. The worst insteon reliability in my network seems to be on the circuits with Arc-Fault circuit breakers, but these still work just fine. In short, the problems seems to be the PLM.
The lights are commanded as individual lights, not as groups, but your clarification on groups does answer some other issues I hay have had with groups.
How do I do a Insteon message trace? Just look at the event log?
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grif091
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 21:53 | IP Logged
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The Insteon Raw Log is displayed on the upper right side of Insteon Explorer. This can be written to a file by going to Setup, Controllers, Settings for the PLM controller where a fully qualified path/file for the Raw Log file is specified. There is an option at the top of the Insteon Explorer screen “Echo Raw Log to file” which causes the Insteon traffic to be written to the path/file specified in Settings. The event log can be seen by selecting Control/Powerhome Status.
What PH release are you running?
If you believe the PLM is the problem replace it.
EDIT: the filters you mentioned affect noise. They do not provide the isolation from power supplies that often attenuate Insteon signals to the point of being unreliable.
Edited by grif091 - April 21 2009 at 22:03
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Handman
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 22:21 | IP Logged
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I am running PH 2.1b.
I have set up the echo to raw file and I'll have to give it a day to check it out.
Thanks for your instant responses. I'd like to blame the PLM and return it, but it's a hassle if I can't point to something more concrete.
Are you saying I should purchase a SH Filterlinc (as opposed to the X-10 version)? If the power supply in the PC was eating up most of the signal, then wouldn't I see more communications issues with the insteon devices? And, why didn't I then have a problem with the PLC? I dunno, I' just wish there was some way to know what criteria PH is using to say that I have "50% reliability" in my PLM communications.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 22:36 | IP Logged
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OK, I going to suggest it again. Have you tried to plug an Access Point into the back of the PLM and tested? That’s like piggy back.
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grif091
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 23:11 | IP Logged
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Powerline issues are generally either noise being generated by one or more devices or signal attenuation caused by power supplies that are filtering out what they see as noise before it reaches the specific device. The problem is what looks like noise to those power supplies are really Insteon signals. Some power supplies in PCs. UPSs, TVs, are very good at reducing the "noise" (actually Insteon signals) such that they are no longer reliable. The Smarthome FilerLinc provides the isolation of the power supplies from the powerline such that Insteon signals are not attenuated. I really wish some company would make a good Insteon powerline analyzer. Then one could objectively measure primary signal strength and noise level throughout the house. Then it would be an objective conclusion. Unfortunately I have not seen anything like that for Insteon. I have a good one for X10 but it is not good for analyzing Insteon communication problems. That makes it a process of elimination.
I would not replace your PLM on my say so as I don't think your PLM is broken. The only way I know to evaluate an Insteon environment is to follow the steps I mentioned in my initial post. Only when everything else fails to indicate a problem area would I think about the PLM. I’ve seen too many communication problems solved by adding a FilterLinc at the PC/UPS or TV to start out thinking the PLM is the cause.
There is one aspect I have not touched on yet. Do you have a serial PLM connected through some adaptor to a USB port. If this is the configuration I would put the PLM on a real serial port for a test. If PH is marking the PLM with comm failures due to serial/USB issues they should show up in the Insteon Raw Log, probably as NAKs to the initial TX call. My serial PLM is connected to a real serial port so I have no direct experience with how that type of failure would appear.
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Handman
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 23:15 | IP Logged
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OK, I have done it. I have piggybacked the PLM to one of the four access points (the old kind). Now what remains to be seen is if the communications with the PLM are good. That'll take a few days.
I guess the thing I don't understand is what does a "clear failed" message mean with a PLM? The clear failed message is currently set for the default of 5 communications failures. Does that mean that an insteon device was unable to communicate with the PLM? If so, then how would PH even record that since the PLM is the link with the software!
Edited by Handman - April 21 2009 at 23:16
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 23:29 | IP Logged
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I get the same "clear failed" on my PLM every few days, but oddly, it doesn't seem to affect anything. All my timers run just fine, my thermostat macros run just fine, etc. I've noticed that my ack/nak is BETTER with the PLM, but the average event 03 for all devices except the thermostat is worse.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 23:29 | IP Logged
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“I guess the thing I don't understand is what does a "clear failed" message mean with a PLM?”
That’s the part that is bothering me. Lee any thoughts….
I run my PLM through an adapter being that the PLM is serial and connected to a USB port. Not a problem and if it was I would suspect a different type of failure. I believe Lee is generally on the root cause of the failure except in the initial quote I copied. Sorry to sound confused but this is interesting.
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Handman
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 23:33 | IP Logged
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The serial port is a real serial port, not a USB conversion.
I think I will rewrite the macros and see if that helps.
Yes, the clear failed doesn't seem to cause any problems, but I am having this issue with the wrong lights turning on and I thought that the two might be related. Maybe it's a "red" herring in this case. 
Still, what does it mean? I never got that with my 2414U or my 2814U OR my 2414S unless the database got corrupted or there was an SDM error which caused it. Since PH still attempts communications, there is no downside, and the PLM isn't polled like the other devices. Maybe Dave H knows why the PLM is getting a clear failed.
Edited by Handman - April 21 2009 at 23:40
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grif091
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| Posted: April 21 2009 at 23:51 | IP Logged
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Pete, I'm not sure. I don't see the PLM symptom on my system. That is why I started at the beginning. Guess it could be something as obtuse as some Timer, Macro, Link is trying to talk from the PLM to the PLM which would always fail and mark the PLM as comm failed eventually because it is the responder in that situation. Or some serial comm problem that prevents PH from communicating with the PLM at all. The insteon raw log along with the event log should cover those items. I know your serial to USB has been solid. There was another post, I think in the PH forum where they went to a different adaptor, maybe the same one you use, which solved a problem but I don't remember the symptom. Seems like all serial to USB adaptors are not created equal.
The situation where one of three devices does not respond to a Direct command could be any of the normal powerline problems. Noise, signal attenuation, that seems separate from the PLM itself being marked comm failed. Lots of symptoms with seemingly no connection. May be more than one issue.
I think we can nail this problem down, just go through each step until we see what the issue actually is for each symptom.
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judetf
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 03:17 | IP Logged
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FWIW, I'm the same as Cicero: I get the 'clear failed' on my USB PLM every few days, and I can't trace any adverse consequences to it. I've stopped bothering to clear it, and things still seem to be running fine. (Yes, I've had some powerline issues recently, but I think I've resolved them for the most part now, and I'm still getting the 'clear failed' on the PLM.)
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grif091
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 04:34 | IP Logged
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Thanks to everyone who has posted the clear failed PLM status. I really appreciate that information. Since PH continues to function with that column shaded I'm assuming it means the same thing it would for any other device, PH has not been able to communicate with it over the powerline at some point rather than being a problem communicating with the PLM over the programmatic serial/USB interface. Assumptions can get one in trouble quickly but that is where I am starting. If the assumption is true it is very strange because the PLM can never communicate with itself over the powerline. Any attempt to do so will result in a powerline communication error. If you want to see what that looks like code up a macro that issues a ph_insteon("PLM ID", 17, 0) and run the macro. You will see the Insteon Raw Log window shows Insteon message failure because the PLM cannot send an Insteon message addressed to itself and have it work.
I displayed all the link records in my PLM to see if PH had created a link record with the Insteon address of itself. The results were negative, none of my PLM link records pointed back to the PLM itself. Should not have found any but wanted to be sure.
Now I am wondering if any of you who do get a red shaded PLM clear failed column might have accidently gotten the PLM defined as a responder to a PLC/PLM Group definition or be using the PLM device ID in a Timed Event, Macro, etc.
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judetf
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 06:55 | IP Logged
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Here's how I attempted to answer your question:
- I went to the PLM in the device tab of Insteon Explorer and scrolled through all of the responder links (bottom half of the screen) which should be the PLM Groups. The PLM was not listed in any of those groups.
- I ran the following direct SQL query: select * from macrodetail where send_keys like '%kpl%'. I got no results. (My PLM is named 'PLM.')
- Next I ran this SQL query: select * from macrodetail where send_keys like '%kpl%'. Again, no results.
Other places to check?
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BeachBum
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 08:34 | IP Logged
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“Now I am wondering if any of you who do get a red shaded PLM clear failed column might have accidently gotten the PLM defined as a responder to a PLC/PLM Group definition or be using the PLM device ID in a Timed Event, Macro, etc.”
Lee I think you’re on to it. Somewhere I remember this as a problem but don’t have the details. PH thinks it’s a receiving device not a controller in some definition. Where that is I have no idea at this moment.
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grif091
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 11:10 | IP Logged
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Pete, thanks, if you find the detail let us know.
Testing this morning confirms that when I run my test macro that issues the ph_insteon("PLM ID", 17, 0) 5 times my PLM entry is shaded red as expected. The shading does not stop PH from sending more commands through the PLM so the only symptom would be the shaded column. In fact it does not stop the issuing of more failure commands from the same macro. Perhaps the shading only stops device queries, linking, etc, not specific commands from Timed Events and Macros.
If someone knows how to code an SQL search of the Event Log looking for a condition where the From and To address or From and To ID are the same it might be helpful. I plan on playing with that tonight but I'm not much on SQL stuff. Will be a good learning experience anyway.
Edited by grif091 - April 22 2009 at 12:13
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BeachBum
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 12:18 | IP Logged
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Lee, this will return Insteon in (30) and Insteon out (31).
SELECT * FROM EVENTLOG WHERE TYPE=30 OR TYPE=31
I don’t have the information for addresses. Tony might know. I’ll play and see if I can find it.
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Handman
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 12:35 | IP Logged
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Well, you may be on to something. I DID have an unknown device link. Unfortunately, I deleted it as part of my usual PH clean up before this discussion hit on this topic. I don't remember where the bad link was, or what is was supposed to link. I guess I will wait and see if the PLM reds out and look for a culprit then. It doesn't explain my wrong light operation issue, but I am certain that is something I can figure out with enough persistence reviewing event logs and verifying macro operation. I still have FORMULA ERRORs (Syntax Error in Formula) in my event log after certain triggers are executed, but they seem to fire normally and someone mentioned that it was a bug in PH that was only issuing a nuisance warning. Pressing on . . .
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BeachBum
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 12:43 | IP Logged
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Yes formula errors are a bug but if you are testing it can be useful. Lee and I are trying to come up with a clean way to identify who the culprit is on the PLM red out. Let us know if putting the Access Point into “piggy back” helps.
Edited by BeachBum - April 22 2009 at 12:44
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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Topic: PLM clear failed, and more
