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Ken524
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Joined: February 23 2007
Location: United States
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| Posted: February 23 2007 at 22:35 | IP Logged
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I've scoured the message board and I'm sure the answers lie somewhere, but I'm not having much luck.
I have set up several KPL's, relays and switches (10 in all) in our home. All manual (tap-tap) linking. I've cross linked lot's of things so KPL LED's track status. Seems to work ok.
PH has spidered and found everything. I've identified all my devices and labeled everything with ID's and Descriptions, so all seems to be working fine.
I'm reading a lot of stuff about 'Groups' needing to be loaded in the PLC. According to PH, my PLC only has one group with 3 items. I think this group was created when I downloaded several timer events using SmartHome's free timer software.
It's my understanding that "Groups" are the devices that turn on/off when I push a KPL button or hit a ToggleLinc switch. Is this correct?
Is this the same as a "Scene"?
Do I need to create all my groups in the PLC then reference them when with a controller? I think what I have done manually is create groups in the controllers themselves. Right?
Another question: I'm trying to analyze the existing links in my KPL's. It appears that the group numbers for the Responders correlate to button numbers on the KPL device. Is this by design or coincidence? Same with ControLinc. Do the groups of responders for ControLinc correspond to the buttons on the ControLinc?
I a bit confused about how all this works. Looking at the Links tab, I feel like "Neo" in the "Matrix" movie when he first sees the water falls of data.
Thanks for the help!
Ken
Edited by Ken524 - February 24 2007 at 18:38
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Ken524
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| Posted: February 25 2007 at 16:41 | IP Logged
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OK, after playing for 2 solid days and adjusting Max Failures to 5 (thanks to the posts in another thread), the light bulb has finally gone off and I "get it".
I'm now a linking fool... Neo can "see" the matrix just by staring at the numbers 
Ken
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dhoward
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| Posted: February 28 2007 at 16:09 | IP Logged
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Ken,
These answers may be a bit late since "Neo" can now see, but I'll comment anyway for others and any additional clarity I may be able to add .
You can think of Groups like Scenes. Essentially the same thing. But with Insteon, we need to realize it's an essential part of the protocol unlike others where it's an enhancement.
When a device is linked (controls or sends a message to other devices), it is a group. The Insteon protocol allows for basically two types of commands (Im simplifying a little here)...Groups and Direct Commands. When a KPL controls another switch, etc., it's done through a Group Broadcast command. This Group Broadcast command has a From address (the KPL) and a group number. Any switch that "hears" the command, checks it's database to see if it belongs to the group number from the (KPL) address. The important thing about Group (Broadcast) commands are that they are not acknowledged. They are sent and if they are heard, acted upon.
The second type of command are Direct commands. Within Direct commands, I like to think of two types. Direct commands are device to device and are acknowledged. You have a From address and a To address. The first type of Direct address can currently only be sent by the PLC. This is basically a direct go to level or off type of command and is completely independent of any groups (links) that have been completed. These types of commands are good because you don't have to previously create any links (groups) in order for them to work. These types of commands are also bad because they ARE completely independent of groups. If you've got a 3 way or multi-way group setup between switches so that all switches are synchronized button and light-wise (done through linking), a single direct command to any switch will kill all of your efforts since ONLY the switch in the direct command will be affected. You'll now be out of sync unless you send direct commands to ALL of your devices (which doesnt work with KPL secondary buttons).
The second type of Direct command is a group cleanup command. It's a direct command because it has a from address and a to address. However, in order for it to work, it's dependant upon groups (links) having been previously set. Like all Direct commands, it's acknowledged and goes to only a single device, but it won't work unless a group has already been setup. In normal operations, when that KPL in your multi-way setup is turned on, it first sends out a group broadcast command. Any switch that hears it, checks it's database, and if it should, responds to the command. In a perfect world, all linked switches respond together. However, when dealing with Insteon (or any wireless protocol really), the world is seldom perfect. After sending the group broadcast command, that KPL will then send individual (direct) group cleanup commands to each switch within it's group as a backup to make sure that every switch is in sync. You see this when you push a button that controls multiple lights and most of the lights all come on simultaneously (responding to the group broadcast) followed by one or two stragglers sequentially turning on (in response to the group cleanup).
Soooo, if you want to keep your multi-way groups synchronized while controlling devices from PowerHome, you must create a corresponding group with the PLC as the controller and then control the group rather than using a direct command to control the device. Alternatively, you can keep the devices in sync manually using direct commands to all grouped (linked) devices.
Concerning group and button numbers. Yes, the group number and button number are essentially the same. With an 8 button KPL, you have buttons 1 - 8 controlling group numbers 1-8 respectively. Same with a ControLinc. In the Links screen, it gets a little confusing concerning KPL's because in the Responders, you also have a "Button" column. Since the KPL has only a single address but 8 addressable controls (8 buttons), you have to specify the button number that is going to respond to a particular group command. You MUST use group commands (either broadcast or cleanup) in order to change any "button" other than 1.
Anyways, welcome to PowerHome Ken. I hope this provides a little more insight  .
Dave.
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Ken524
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Joined: February 23 2007
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| Posted: February 28 2007 at 21:03 | IP Logged
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Dave,
Thanks a million for that explanation. It helps immensely! While I had kinda-sorta figured out how to manipulate stuff, your lesson gives me a starting point for reconfiguring my system.
By the way, I'm sold. I just purchased your software. Thanks for taking the time to post!
Ken
Louisville
ps: Just upgraded to 1.03.4.10. So far, I really like the changes.
Edited by Ken524 - February 28 2007 at 21:05
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Topic: What is a "Group"?
