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GadgetGuy
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| Posted: January 06 2011 at 18:29 | IP Logged
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I do have several Motion Sensors, but they have no connection at all to the "spooky" lights.
I can find nothing in my logs at all that help. Since I only have a general idea of when a "spooky" lighting event occured, it is impossible to pin things down to an exact time.
I have opened the Event Log and then filtered the results for the device that got turned on, but have never found any Insteon Adress traffic for that device. This is what leads me to think that the device has inappropriately responded to a command to a totally different device.
My assumption is that perhaps there is noise on the signals and that changes an address bit so that the wrong device responds to someone else's ON command.
I guess I'm not inclined to think it is a device issue, so much as the terrible noisy environment that they work in.
The only solution would be to have a better communications protocal that used ACK/NAK exchanges to verify each transaction, but that would significantly increase Insteon com traffic!
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BeachBum
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| Posted: January 06 2011 at 20:45 | IP Logged
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I also have had the same dilemma that I have documented in the past. Mine is a result of noise. The noise basically comes from track lighting that can cause other lights to do strange things. That is why I have extensive error recovery routines that restore every light to its intended state. When the event occurs it is difficult to trap as to the unpredictable occurrence when it will occur.
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 07:08 | IP Logged
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My Hall light (FR_STAIRS_LOAD) just came on by itself again today. Again, there was motion activity right before it. And I did factory reset
my PLM and added full. Here is the log capture:
07:00:39 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[14.1C.7C] To Address:[00.00.02] Flags:[203] Cmd1:[19] Cmd2:[2].
Decode: Group Broadcast. From: MSTRBATH_MOTION Group: 2, Off
07:00:39 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[14.1C.7C] To Address:[00.00.02] Flags:[203] Cmd1:[19] Cmd2:[2].
Decode: Group Broadcast. From: MSTRBATH_MOTION Group: 2, Off
07:00:39 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[0A.54.C0] To Address:[00.00.01] Flags:[199] Cmd1:[17] Cmd2:[0].
Decode: Group Broadcast. From: FR_STAIRS_LOAD Group: 1, On
07:00:40 Incoming Insteon received on Insteon DM controller PLM. From Address:[0A.54.C0] To Address:[14.85.10] Flags:[65] Cmd1:[17] Cmd2:[1].
Decode: Group Cleanup. From: FR_STAIRS_LOAD To: PLMCTLR1 Group: 1, On
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GadgetGuy
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 07:39 | IP Logged
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We have been away on vacation for the last two weeks, so there was no manual light useage and no motion actions around the house and yet one of my "spook" lights turned itself on 4-5 times in our absence.
I would see it on my video cam security feed to my iPhone and remotely turn it back off.
The only PH initiated actions going on during that time were the regular device Status Polling pings every 10 seconds.
Thus only . . .
1) electrical noise alone, or
2) noise combined with a poll could have turned the light on (assuming the light's Insteon switch didn't just fire all by itself for no reason).
Given this evidence, it would seem that noise in some form may be the major culprit.
I have seen this seriously manifested in several individual cases.
We have a house guest that visits several times a year, and every time he came our home automation went to hell on a handcart. I finally determined it was his Laptop computer's power supply that was causing the problem. Installing a SmartHome Model 1626 Line Noise Filter at the outlet where he plugged in stopped the problem.
In another case, I had my garage door open/close actions turn the lights on/off. It worked 100% of the time in turning the lights on, but only about 50% in turning them off. Drove me crazy for months. When I changed out the garage's CFL fluorescent lights for regular incandescent bulbs, the problem went away. Since these were ceiling lights I installed a SmartHome Model 4834 20A 3-wire Noise Filter in the power run to the lights and that solved the problem.
While these are not "spook" light problems they do example the powerful effect of power line noise on the operation of Insteon/X10 devices.
Edited by GadgetGuy - January 07 2011 at 07:40
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BeachBum
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 08:42 | IP Logged
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Why don’t you pull the battery on the Motion Sensor then go from there. I believe that was Sunrise triggering.
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 08:55 | IP Logged
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I was thinking about that, and maybe putting my PLC back in too. I am 99.999% sure it is some sort of
interaction between them two. I most certainly did not have these problems before I installed them a couple
of months ago. I figure if I pull them out and put in the PLC again, if I can go a week or two without any
ghost lights, then that should be enough to confirm it is either the PLM or the motions (or both).
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 08:56 | IP Logged
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By the way, sunrise wasn't until 0721 this morning. I
don't think sunrise had anything to do with it.
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grif091
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 09:55 | IP Logged
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There are Group 2 Off (Dusk/Dawn Off) along with a Group 1 On (Motion On) Group Broadcast messages immediately preceding the SwitchLinc On Group Cleanup message from FR_STAIRS_LOAD. Although slightly different in that there is a Dusk/Dawn Group Broadcast message in the mix, the basic sequence of multiple Group Broadcast messages immediately preceding the SwitchLinc Group Cleanup message is consistent. RF only devices are the only devices that issue multiple Group Broadcast messages (for a single event) so the motion sensor is unique in that sense.
There is no doubt in my mind that the motion sensor sequence triggers the problem. We now have 4 traces on two different platforms showing the same basic set of facts. I don't think the motion sensor is failing, only that the nature of the messages they generate triggers the problem.
I don't think the problem GadgetGuy is having is the same situation. There are log messages from the device that is turning On which is a key aspect of this symptom where GadgetGuy indicates he has no Log messages from the device that turns On. Very different circumstances. The situation of a PC/Laptop power supply causing interference, CFLs generating noise when they are ON are both well known issues associated with powerline communication. You can find references to these type problems across all the forums (Smarthome, Powerhome, UDI) I follow.
If you are going to make changes, do ONE thing at a time. Taking the battery out of all the motion sensors will stop the symptom (my assumption). No need to change the PLM back to a PLC. Or change out the PLM for the PLC, but do only one change at a time. I believe you will continue to see the symptom going back to a PLC. By doing the PLC only that it would eliminate the PLM as the cause should the problem continue to occur.
Edited by grif091 - January 07 2011 at 09:57
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MrGibbage
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 10:58 | IP Logged
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Lee, I agree with everything you said here. Thanks.
When I linked the motions to the PLM, I did it for all three groups. I didn't really know what the groups were for, but
I figured the shotgun of all three groups would help the reliability.
If I swap out the PLM for a PLC, will the motions till work through powerhome? I do have a couple of access points
installed. Can the access points talk to a PLC? I rely on PH for all of the automation. I do not have my motions
linked to any lights directly--I look for the signal from the motions in PH and then do all the automation. If I can do
this, then I will make the swap this weekend and let it run for a while.
I wonder if this is something that I should let smarthome know about. It is starting to look like a bug of sorts that
may require re-engineering.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 11:10 | IP Logged
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The Access Points talk to each other not the PLC/PLM unless you have a dual band. Look at them being another wire carrying the signal. Swapping the PLM back to the PLC would be a last ditch effort for me. Besides that the reconfiguration can be a pain. It sounds to me a linking problem involving the Motion Sensor. I let PH control all my devices. The only physical device I let control other devices is my one KPL and that is strictly for backup in case there is a system failure and all that linking was done in PH..
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grif091
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| Posted: January 07 2011 at 11:15 | IP Logged
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The motion sensors will work with a PLC. They use Standard Insteon Group protocol for motion and dusk/dawn messages. All the installed devices that have links to the PLM will have to be updated to reflect the PLC address rather than the PLM address.
The only problem I can think of with the PLC is if you are using a Dual Band PLM and the motion sensor(s) are using the RF capability of the PLM.
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Topic: Light comes on all by itself?
