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Handman
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| Posted: February 04 2010 at 19:52 | IP Logged
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Ok, for the life of me I don't get it. Working 99% perfectly now - even on the PLM!  The raw log apparently wasn't enabling because SDM was recording all the raw data. I have no idea what is different now than before. It just acts like it did 4 months ago. Sure would be nice to know what is going on in case it happens again.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: February 04 2010 at 20:02 | IP Logged
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If my memory still works the Echo Log is only for PLM. You need to go to SDM and type in DM and then when you want you can save the log file. I love progress. It baffles me that the PLM may be having a problem with X10 and not Insteon.
Well I was in the middle of this when I spotted your next post. Did you do a reload of the PLM.
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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grif091
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| Posted: February 04 2010 at 20:07 | IP Logged
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The file open error is the result of the file already being open by another application. I use Wordpad to look at my log file and if I forget to close Wordpad Powerhome cannot open it for Write mode. Same thing will happen in reverse. If the Echo option is checked such that Powerhome has it open for Write Wordpad will not be able to open the same file.
You have something that is interfering with X10 communications (I know that is stating the obvious). With the PLC and the PLM seeing the same symptom from two different X10 sources there is something else yet to be identified causing the problem.
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Lee G
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Handman
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| Posted: February 04 2010 at 20:18 | IP Logged
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Well, I don't get it. I am back to the same deal. 1/2 X10 commands. Gosh, it was great when it was working. What could be interfering with X10 commands that are so close to the PLM? The computer has a filter and really, how can half make make it and half not make it? I know, I know. Troubleshoot the X10 or buy Insteon.
Edited by Handman - February 04 2010 at 20:21
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BeachBum
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| Posted: February 04 2010 at 20:38 | IP Logged
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I’m going to sit on this tonight. I’ve been playing with X10 since the 70s and have always found a solution without spending more money. My only problem is I haven’t had to fight a problem in quite awhile. There has to be something in the equation you disturb when you went back to the PLM and it worked.
Lee stays up half the night if he isn’t raking leaves and since they're covered with snow now maybe he’ll come up with something.
Edited by BeachBum - February 04 2010 at 23:23
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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jeffw_00
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| Posted: February 04 2010 at 21:54 | IP Logged
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If you have X-10 noise in the system it doesn't -matter- how close the X-10 source is to the PLM. Noise is noise. Once I had a PC power supply suddenly go funky on day (PC still worked great, but it started spewing noise) and nothing worked reliably - even a filterlinc didn't help. Had to swap the supply. Is the led on the PLM blinking or flickering at all? If so, something in your house went hinky.
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Handman
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| Posted: February 04 2010 at 21:58 | IP Logged
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Right on. You guys are both awesome; a serious fountain of knowledge. I am going to turn off every power circuit I can tonight and see if it improves, then slowly come back on and see if anything gives. The only thing I can think of is some more lights might have come on and the kids were running around a lot (generating a fair amount of motion sensor traffic).
I'll report back . . . .
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Handman
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| Posted: February 04 2010 at 23:39 | IP Logged
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Jeffw - no the PLM light isn't blinking or flickering unless there is associated PL communications.
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grif091
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 03:44 | IP Logged
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That is what happens when one does not read every word and look at screen capture enough. The Echo file path is in the Controller Settings. Since the file name in the popup is null, I am assuming you switched Controllers, perhaps to the PLC and it does not contain the path/file name. Or the path information was lost somehow in the process of switching controllers.
Second, do you have anything X10 specific installed beyond what you have mentioned so far. An X10 coupler, repeater installed somewhere, that type of X10 device. Seems a little odd that with that much X10 message interference, that you would not also have an Insteon problem.
Assuming the ICON switch is still showing one or the other X10 messages being lost, unplug the PSC05 and see if the problem continues with the ICON switch.
Edited by grif091 - February 05 2010 at 03:51
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Lee G
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BeachBum
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 08:50 | IP Logged
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X10 signals are detected usually around 50 micro seconds from the zero cross over point of 60 cycles. This also can give or take another 50. The second thing is the amplitude. If noise is the culprit then that affects detection of valid X10 signals. If design or unit malfunction then the burst at the zero cross over may not occur. The latter usually is not intermittent. So that leaves us with most likely NOISE whatever that noise is.
When you temporally got things running again I assume you unplugged the PSC05. You then swapped out the PLC/PLM and then re-plugged. Other than software realignment was there anything else that occurred like plugging the PLM into a different socket?
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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BeachBum
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 09:13 | IP Logged
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Another thought, if you are running Insteon traffic we might be able to see a pattern there by investigating whether there are NAKs with the responses. So far with what you have submitted I haven’t seen that yet. If you go to Insteon Explorer and click on Reports are there any red bars?
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BeachBum
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 09:33 | IP Logged
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This is dangerous I had another thought. Have you installed any CFLs recently? They don’t regenerate as much noise but can be a different culprit like the computer power supply commonly called “signal suckers”. If so isolate them for testing.
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Handman
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 18:06 | IP Logged
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***LEE:Second, do you have anything X10 specific installed beyond what you have mentioned so far. An X10 coupler, repeater installed somewhere, that type of X10 device.
I have a passive coupler at a subpanel for phase coupling. I also have one RR501 transceiver and one TM751 transceiver to turn on some plug-in lights. Finally I have one X10 wireless wall switch. The only plug-in X10 are the transceivers.
****Assuming the ICON switch is still showing one or the other X10 messages being lost, unplug the PSC05 and see if the problem continues with the ICON switch.
With the PSC05 disconnected I still get cut messages on the Icon switch some of the time and now also on a Controlinc I have set up to send X10 for troubleshooting.
****PETE: When you temporally got things running again I assume you unplugged the PSC05. You then swapped out the PLC/PLM and then re-plugged. Other than software realignment was there anything else that occurred like plugging the PLM into a different socket?
The PSC05 was plugged into a different socket because of your concerns with piggybacking on the PLM, so it wasn't moved. The PLM was disconnected and the PLC replaced it in the same socket. It took a while to set the com port for the PLC and to get SDM communicating, but once it did I had the same problems. Then, fifteen minutes later it worked perfectly for 20 minutes - almost flawless with no clipped X10 communications. Then, just as quickly, back to the same old clipped communications.
****PETE: This is dangerous I had another thought. Have you installed any CFLs recently? They don’t regenerate as much noise but can be a different culprit like the computer power supply commonly called “signal suckers”. If so isolate them for testing.
I have some new CFLs and some new fluorescent bulbs. Do they need to be on to be a problem - presumably, yes since they are almost always on hot switched legs. The insteon sometimes is challenged here, but almost always gets through. Same thing with my electronic ballast LV halogens. I live with whatever noise I have because Insteon is 97% reliable and the outgoing X10 (to turn on those two table lamps) gets through 99% of the time. My issue has been the wireless X10 signals and I have assumed - perhaps incorrectly - that the X10 signal going from the PSC05 piggybacked onto the PLM would not be interfered with sufficiently to cause X10 errors. This seemed to work for a year and then something changed - I assumed PH or hardware related to the X10 (V572/PSC05/PLM). Right now there isn't one light on in the house and nothing has changed - poor X10 reception at the PC. I still need to start unplugging things to troubleshoot. Things that are on most of the time but then may have been off for my period of complete X10 communications yesterday might be a video monitor, a refrigerator, or something like that.
***PETE: Another thought, if you are running Insteon traffic we might be able to see a pattern there by investigating whether there are NAKs with the responses. So far with what you have submitted I haven’t seen that yet. If you go to Insteon Explorer and click on Reports are there any red bars?
The first item with a red bar is an Insteon Triggerlinc which doesn't do 2-way comm to save battery. I have disabled it in PH. I have made a few notations of LVH (for low voltage halogen) or CFL for some of the items with longer red bars. FWIW, the most insteon comm errors seem to happen with the LVH, not any fluorescent or CFL. Of course X10 could be otherwise. At the moment no lights are running and I am still having X10 issues. Time to start unplugging . . .
  
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Handman
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 19:30 | IP Logged
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Update: it's beginning to look a lot like a new HD video monitor - it was on a filtered power strip, but may have been moved by house cleaner. Added to filtered strip and for the moment, all is working. It shuts itself off after an hour of inactivity which would explain the periods of perfect reception. 
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BeachBum
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 19:34 | IP Logged
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In the past I have used couplers and still do and repeaters and/or amplifiers. Repeaters repeat the noise and amplifiers amplify the noise. I have NOT had a problem with CFLs and I run about 85% but there have been a lot of concerns about them and noise. I personally believe it depends on the manufacturer. I do run trac systems with MR16 halogens and they are definitely a big problem. It is so bad Insteon cannot recover and I have to use Leviton X10 to make them work. Now for the brief period that everything did work again is it a wild possibility you are getting RF interference from somewhere? I don’t see Insteon revealing any serious problems in those reports.
And finally here is some more useful information that might help isolate the noise if that is the culprit. “You can try a portable AM radio tuned to an unused frequency near the low end of the dial (around 550 to 650kHz). A noise source near 120kHz will often generate 5th and 6th order harmonics near this AM band. Carry the radio with you and move it near AC outlets while listening to the noise. The louder it is, the closer you are to the source. Use the noise to guide you, and you'll hopefully find the source.” The problem with this approach is dimmer modules also generate their own noise and might give you a false indication. This is also a very helpful link for trouble shooting.
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb03/articles/chadwick/debu g.htm#SOLVING%20INTERMITTENT%20X10%20PROBLEMS
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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BeachBum
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 19:36 | IP Logged
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You jumped on right in front of me. Plasmas and LCDs? Where have I’ve heard that before….
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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Handman
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 21:38 | IP Logged
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Yeah, well, I have more TSing to do. The X10 is better, but not in the 90th percentile again. Of course it could be that the XPPF filter isn't good enough for this issue, or else I am not on the issue yet. I may just unplug the monitor for 12 hours and see. I can always swap it with another one.
The AM radio technique is an interesting one. Incidentally, I have used the same technique for thunderstorm detection with an ADF (automatic direction finder) back when I flew with that old equipment.  Guess there is a parallel between thunderstorms and X10 noise somewhere in there.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: February 05 2010 at 23:11 | IP Logged
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ADF!!! Back in the days of R4D2s we had the same thing. You are showing your age. Join the club. Anyways good job of narrowing this down.
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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Topic: 1/2 X10 cmds: Software issue or hardware.
